cultural match

NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow: John Petoskey (Part 1)

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

In the first of two interviews conducted in conjunction with his tenure as NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow, John Petoskey, citizen and long-time General Counsel of the Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians (GTB), discusses how GTB has worked and continues to work to build and maintain a strong, independent system of justice that is viewed as legitimate by GTB citizens. He also discusses GTB's integration of peacemaking and peacemaker courts into its justice systems as a culturally appropriate way of resolving disputes and bringing healing to the community. 

People
Resource Type
Citation

Petoskey, John. "NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow: John Petoskey (Part 1)." Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management, and Policy, University of Arizona. Tucson, Arizona. October 1, 2013. Interview.

Ian Record:

"Welcome to Leading Native Nations. I'm your host, Ian Record. On today's program, we are honored to have with us John Petoskey. John is a citizen of the Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians and has spent much of the past 30 years serving as his nation's general counsel. As general counsel, he participates in all federal, state and tribal litigation and administrative hearings where his nation is a plaintiff or defendant. In addition, John wrote the majority of Grand Traverse Band's statutes, published as the Grand Traverse Band Code. He also currently serves as partner with Fredericks, Peebles and Morgan LLP and is spending this week at the University of Arizona serving as Indigenous Leadership Fellow with the University's Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management and Policy. John, welcome, and good to have you with us today."

John Petoskey:

"Thank you."

Ian Record:

"I've shared a few highlights of your very impressive personal biography, but why don't you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. What did I leave out?"

John Petoskey:

"Well, I have been with the Grand Traverse Band for, as you said, a long time. Prior to that I did work for Legal Services...Indian Legal Services in Michigan and importantly, I worked on one of the leading cases on off-reservation treaty fishing and on-reservation treaty fishing that was called U.S. v. Michigan, which followed the same genesis of the United States v. Washington. And when I originally got out of law school in 1979, I was lucky to participate in the trial portion of that case as a first-year law student that had not yet gone to a federal district court opinion. So that was very gratifying and enlightening to me to see how the United States' trust responsibility is implemented for tribes. At the same time, I'm a product of my history in Michigan. My father is from Little Traverse Bay Band[s of Odawa Indians]; my mother is from Grand Traverse Bay Band. And through circumstances of history, the Ottawa tribes of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan were not federally recognized under the 1855 treaty, which was a misinterpretation where the Secretary of Interior took federal recognition away in 1871. As a consequence of that act, the state of Indian tribes in Michigan, the Ottawa tribes were desolate, and U.S. v. Michigan was the first spark of hope, if you will, by reversing that decline that the tribes had been in for so long.

After U.S. v. Michigan, I went to work at Indian Pueblo Legal Services in Northern New Mexico and I worked for, in one capacity or the other, for most of the pueblos as a legal services attorney representing poor Indians in the tribal justice systems of the Pueblos and in state and federal court. Those were largely jurisdictional cases at that time in the early "˜80s. There was a lot of assertion of state authority and state court jurisdiction for on-reservation activities. So I litigated a lot of cross motions for summary judgment of no subject matter jurisdiction and I also got to participate in some unique Pueblo-initiated procedures to resolve justice questions that the Pueblos had on their reservations, which were unique because the Pueblos have a unique system of justice that is still largely indigenously driven, if you will, from their historical experience.

After Indian Pueblo Legal Services, I went to Alaska Legal Services, which does have a totally different legal history under the Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act of 1971. I was in a place called Nome, Alaska and I went out to villages in an area that was probably 500 miles in diameter surrounding Nome and provided legal services to remote isolated villages. And there you could see the coalescence of all federal Indian policy in a community of 150 people where you would have a traditional government and Indian Reorganization Act government and a local government and an Alaska Native Claims Settlement Act corporation board. So you'd have four layers of government for people, for a total population of 150 people. It was designed for failure, which that's a separate question, but those are items that are left out.

After Alaska Legal Services I went to work for National Indian Youth Council, where I worked on voting rights cases in the southwest turning at-large voting structures into single member districts, largely in New Mexico, in Cibola County and McKinley County. Then I also worked on First Amendment cases in which tribes were alleging that they had a right under the First Amendment to access to federal public domain law that was under the control of the federal government, but for historical reasons the tribes had ceremonial relationships with the land and their ceremonial relationships with the land were being impaired by the Federal Public Land Policies that prohibited their access in some cases or in other cases prohibited their access on an exclusive basis for some of their ceremonies that they needed to conduct."

Ian Record:

"We here at NNI know quite a bit about the Grand Traverse Band. A number of our staff have worked with the Band over the years. You and some of my colleagues for instance go way back to the late "˜80s, early "˜90s and the Band has also received three awards from our partner organization the Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development and its Honoring Nations Award Program, but share with our audience a bit more about your nation, just who is the Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians?"

John Petoskey:

"The Grand Traverse Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians are Indians that lived in and around the Grand Traverse Bay of Northern Michigan. Michigan is shaped like a hand. If you're from Michigan, people always say to each other, "˜Where are you from?' and they'll hold up a hand and they'll say, "˜Well, I'm from Lansing, I'm from Detroit or I'm from Gaylord.' In this case, using the hand as the analogy, Grand Traverse Band is located on the little finger. That's where the peninsula is. The historical area was a reservation that was created in 1855. Just immediately north to us is the Little Traverse Bay Band, which is located in Petoskey, Michigan. South to us is the Little River Band, which is located in and around Manistee, which is right there.

The Grand Traverse Band achieved federal recognition under the Administrative Procedures Process in 1980. It was the first tribe to go through the federal acknowledgement process under the then-developing federal regulations that go all the way back to the Policy Review Commission back to the "˜70s. When it achieved federal recognition, it had to engage in building all of the governance institutions that were necessary to establish a tribal government. Incident to that, I had met Steve Cornell when I had worked at National Indian Youth Council because he was a personal friend of Gerald Wilkinson and Vine Deloria and Dr. Cornell or Steve Cornell used to come and visit with Gerald Wilkinson and I met him initially in that time period that I was working at National Indian Youth Council.

And then after I started working as general counsel for the tribe in the "˜80s, we were engaged in the process of building these governmental institutions as a new federally recognized tribe and we had to look around for models of how to establish our tribal organization, how to establish our tribal constitution and go forward from there. And so we'd have constitutional committees drafting the constitution and we also were engaged in a fight at that time with James Watt, who was the Assistant Secretary of the Interior. And the position under the Reagan administration was that federal acknowledgement was limited to a discrete number of people on the original petition that was submitted, and our argument was that federal acknowledgement covered everybody that was eligible as a descendent from Grand Traverse Band from the last annuity treaty payment that took place in 1910. And obviously, our category that we said were eligible was much larger than the category that the feds wanted to recognize.

As a consequence, we were engaged in litigation with the federal government over the terms of our recognition, which impaired the development of some of our governance institutions, particularly our constitution, which the Interior did not ratify until after that litigation was resolved in 1986 and then the constitution was ratified in 1988, I believe. But at that time, once the constitution was ratified, we really had to come up with the procedures, if you will, for our justice institutions, for our legislative process and for our executive process. And doing research of what models to follow, I came across the Harvard Project on Economic Development and at that time, this was before the internet was widely available, we had to send away for these series of memorandums that students had written on a number of different aspects of Indian economic development and Indian governance issues. And so I basically sent away for all the memorandums and went through the memorandums and cut and paste what I thought was the best in those memorandums for GTB's situation and then went through the process of having the executive-legislature enact those provisions for Grand Traverse Band. Incident to that, I then reinitiated my friendship with Steve Cornell and Steve came up to Grand Traverse Band on two different occasions to visit and to present information and points of views on how he developed tribal institutions. Also, Vine Deloria came up a couple times because I had met and known him at National Indian Youth Council and gave brief talks to our tribal council on the historical relationship of tribal governance and the Department of the Interior and the United States. And Vine had at that time and always did have a very focused analysis of how tribal governments had been overpowered by the federal government. And so in all senses of the word, he was an advocate for strong tribal governance and he promoted that when he was speaking with our tribal council and providing advice on which way to go. So that's, in a quick thumbnail I think that's what the relationship was."

Ian Record:

"Following up on this issue of constitutional development, you said that you were one of the people charged with going out and learning what other tribes had been doing to develop governments that made sense for them and that you sort of worked to integrate the best of what you had learned from others. Was there at some point in the process a customization of some of those governing institutions to the particular circumstances, cultural values of Grand Traverse in trying to make it their own?"

John Petoskey:

"Well, yes. The process of writing a constitution is not...doesn't rise to the level of the Federalist Papers, where you have advocates writing arguments for and against different propositions that are in the constitution. In the Indian community, what that comes down to, if you will, the "Federalist Paper" analogy is a group of people sitting around working their way through the constitution occasion after occasion after occasion after occasion and bringing out their own personal experience from the community as to what will work and what will not work, and so that's what the Grand Traverse Band community did."

Ian Record:

"And how has the...in your estimation how has the constitution worked in the 25 years it's been in place? Do you feel like it's beginning to gain...it has gained widespread cultural and community acceptance?"

John Petoskey:

"Yes. The one unique aspect of our constitution that is different from other constitutions is most entities elect a tripartite system of governance where they have executive, legislature and judiciary. At the time, when we were developing our constitution, the concept of consensus through council discussion was the primary value that people brought to the table of communication of trading off what would work and what would not work. The concept of separating the executive and legislature was not high on anybody's list, and so the GTB constitution has a combined executive-legislative function, so the council meets as a group and acts by motion, ordinance or resolution and it's the majority vote of the seven on the council. There are itemized activities that the executive power has -- and the vice chair and the treasurer and secretary -- but that is still in the context of the council acting as the executive-legislative combined branch of government. So we don't have, if you will, effectively, three coordinate branches of government. We have two branches of government, the executive-legislature as one and the judiciary as the other."

Ian Record:

"Let's talk about the judiciary. I plan to cover a number of topics with you today, but first and foremost is the issue of the judiciary or justice systems comprehensively and I'd like to start big picture, and based on your vast experience in this area, what role do you feel justice systems play in a tribe's ability to exercise its sovereignty effectively, to achieve its priorities, to create a healthier more culturally vibrant community?"

John Petoskey:

"Oh, that's kind of an open-ended question. I would like to just go directly to Grand Traverse Band. In our constitution we have the judiciary as an independent branch of government with independent authority and it's recognized in the constitution to have that. The judiciary serves the function as a check on the executive and legislative actions and it also provides a forum for dispute resolution between the community and community members over behavior that is not acceptable or behavior that comes to the court to resolve disputes between two individuals.

For example, I'm thinking of family law matters, dissolution of marriages or abuse and neglect on children or cases like that, so you need a third party to resolve disputes where the question of who is right and who is wrong is an open question subject to the advocacy of the parties. I don't see the judiciary in a larger, big-picture sense that you outlined. I see it in a little-picture sense of resolving disputes and if an individual, a tribal member, has a dispute with the tribal council over the enactment of legislation or the administration of that legislation by the delegated entities that the council has set up, then that tribal council member under our system, if our constitution has the right to go into tribal court because our constitution waives the immunity of the executive and the legislature and to assert that the application of that rule to that particular person is wrong for whatever reason.

And the Section 10 of our constitution incorporates almost word for word the Indian Civil Rights Act, which is almost...with notable exception leaves out certain elements from the Bill of Rights. The Indian Civil Rights Act is modeled on the Bill of Rights and those are the, if you will, the constitutional values that the federal system has, that the state system has, and by force of this overpowering values of constitutional law from our coordinate sovereign governments, the federal government and the state government, most tribal members are familiar with the U.S. federal constitutional rights and state constitutional rights; therefore, if they have a complaint with the United...with the tribe, they frame their complaint in that context and what is not unique about our constitution, but other constitutions, also have this, is that the constitution recognizes that there's an automatic waiver for that type of cause of action by a tribal member to sue the executive and legislature alleging a violation of Chapter 10 of our constitution, which effectively is the Indian Civil Rights Act. And our constitutional members have done that a number of times.

And then we also have disputes between...we have had disputes between the executive and the judicial...the executive and legislative branch and the judicial branch and the constitution does provide a methodology for the resolution of those disputes. We have had judicial removals and it's a process of the executive-legislature filing a claim in the judiciary unit, a panel of judicial appointees are appointed to determine whether or not a judge should be removed for cause, that are established in the constitution. So when you say big picture, it's too big for me to grasp because everything that I...for myself at least, I'm not a big-picture person and look at concrete problems and how to solve concrete problems, and those concrete problems I guess do have big picture implications, but it's solving the concrete problems that I focus on at least."

Ian Record:

"Well, and that's one of the reasons we thought of you as a good pick to be one of our fellows is that in our vast experience working with tribes on the ground in tribal communities is the fact that nation building is not a top-down proposition. It really starts at the grassroots and it works from the bottom up with the problems that every day...that come up every day that tribal members face. For instance, seeking redress against the government when they feel that they've been wronged. You mentioned that Grand Traverse Band's justice system is strong and independent and NNI and Harvard Project have done a lot of research in this area and it's been pretty conclusive in terms of finding that having a strong and independent justice system is really vital to a nation's efforts to achieve its goals. And I'm curious to get your take on that finding based upon your own experience and obviously the strength and independence of the justice system was not an accident. This was a purposeful process that the tribe has engaged in over a very long period of time to build that strength, to build that independence, and I guess my question to you would be how do you see that research finding in the context of what Grand Traverse has done?"

John Petoskey:

"In the context of...well, I would support it first of all. Having a strong and independent justice system is very important. And I think Grand Traverse Band has been lucky in some of the initial judges that it had that were tribal members that served for a long time on the judicial system and the fact that they were tribal citizens gave greater legitimacy for their decisions and for the conflicts that were resolved by judicial action. When we have had problems with the Grand Traverse Band is when we have...our constitution was written in the early "˜80s and actually implemented in 1988 and the provision that we have for judicial appointments does have a proviso of appointing attorneys who are non-members, and so on occasion we have had to appoint non-member attorneys to act as tribal judges. And the argument there is, "˜Well, an attorney has training in procedural due process, dispute resolution, the framing of legal arguments for the resolution of complex disputes and is familiar with the substantive law that comes forward that regulates human relationships and governmental relationships and so therefore the attorney, even though not a member, would bring value in that position as a tribal judge,' and that argument I accept.

Nevertheless, the proviso in my experience has been that when a non-Indian, non-citizen of the tribe is appointed, there are problems that inevitably arise because the legitimacy of that judicial officer is questioned by the community. I would propose a thought experiment that people would see this analogy or this problem in another manner. For example, I don't think any tribal constitution provides a provision in which you can elect to their tribal council non-members so long as they're attorneys or that they're engineers or something else, and that's just unheard of. And so the executive and legislative branch that are made up of members has greater legitimacy for implementing a decision even if the decision is wrong because it's coming from that citizen group in that community. Conversely, when a judge who is not a member is trying to implement a decision, even if that decision is right, it has less legitimacy.

So the cautionary tale that I would have on building strong judicial departments is that you keep in mind, and I know this is somewhat of a touchy subject, but you keep in mind that those should be citizen members that are filling those positions and it lends greater legitimacy to the resolution of the problems, and maybe this is a problem just uniquely to some tribes that have that provision in their constitution for the appointment of non-Indians, but if you look at the Indian law world, all of the Indian law professors -- you could tick them off on your hand that are the big stars -- also serve on tribal courts. And so they're not bringing their membership as a member of a tribe, they're coming to serve on those courts as people that are profoundly sympathetic to Indians and profoundly conversant with the principles of federal Indian law and the principles of substantive law, but nevertheless, they are bringing the same baggage of their cultural tradition to an Indian forum for resolving disputes involving principally Indians. There's variations on that too because some of those...some people argue that tribal courts are courts of general jurisdiction so they can resolve disputes involving Indians and non-Indians and I accept that, but what I'm saying is that a citizen/member of the tribe lends greater legitimacy to the resolution of the dispute."

Ian Record:

"To me what you're really talking about are what I see as two challenges. One is there needs to be a thoughtful, strategic discussion about. 'What should the qualifications of judges be?' So for instance, obviously should they have passed the bar in the state in which the tribe resides? That's often a criteria. I think what the Navajo example and a growing number of other tribal examples teach us is that tribes really placing an emphasis on their judges having understanding of that tribe's common cultural law and being in a position to apply that. And from what you're saying that non-Indian outsiders are just not equipped with that because they haven't grown up in that environment."

John Petoskey:

"Yes. In fact there should be, and I think Navajo does this and I confess my ignorance in this, but there should be a Navajo bar exam and tribes should implement their own bar exams for the practice within their own courts. Certainly all tribes now implement admission to their bar for their court but really all that is...and I'm not saying this in a negative or pejorative sense, but all that is is motioning yourself in for admission, paying the admission fee and being admitted to the bar of that particular tribe. But, if a tribe were to develop a bar exam and it's not...doesn't necessarily have to be on the substantive elements of what constitutes a tort crime, but it would have to be on something, in the case of Grand Traverse Band, it would have to be on the substantive elements of what is the fundamental value of Algonquians or Ottawas on how you lead a good life and what is the balance in life and the aim of life that you're supposed to be doing. And there is a set of concepts interrelated that are from the tradition of Ottawas and Ojibwes that define what is a good life and what is a bad life. And being sensitive to that in the position of judging disputes in which people are arguing over and sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly over those received values, is important to resolving issues that come before the court."

Ian Record:

"I want to turn back to Grand Traverse Band and the strength and independence that you and others have worked so hard to instill within that justice system that you currently operate. What do you feel -- based on the Grand Traverse experience -- that tribal justice systems need to have in place in order to be strong and independent?"

John Petoskey:

"I know the appropriate answer would probably be an institutional structure that non-Indians are familiar with, but the realistic answer, if you...is you need people that are really bright and focused and from that tradition and that are committed to that tradition. They are people that are...that grew up in the tradition, that bring the intelligence of the tradition to the position and that are committed to that tradition, that is an answer that is sort of off-center, but you need an Indian jurisprudence of values that reflect the community that you're from and the way that those values evolve are from growing up in that community, and that's an ongoing constant process. There's no one set of values that control the evolution of the community. In my own life for example and my wife's life, our parents had a totally different experience from what it was to be Indian in the...they were both born in 1915 and grew up in a period from 1915, died in the "˜80s, their life experience was fundamentally different and their grandparents or their parent's life experience was fundamentally different and they were born in the 1870s and you stretch back. This may be a little far afield, but if you stretch back to my grandparents, who were in the 1870s, and you stretch to my children now who were born in the 1990s, you have 120 years of change that is constantly taking place, but all of them have the same common denominator of coming from the same group of people and going through that change together."

Ian Record:

"So basically what you're saying is that the folks that lead that justice system, if you will, need to be culturally grounded, right?"

John Petoskey:

"Yes."

Ian Record:

"They need to have roots in the community that are not sort of put down overnight, but come from long, sustained involvement in the community, whether it's residence or participation in cultural ceremonies, etc. But just to sort of throw out a scenario to you, so presume for a second that you have all that on the judicial side of the equation and then there's somebody, in your case the executive-legislative side of governance equation that doesn't...is not acting from those values, if you will, and places perhaps unhealthy pressure on the judiciary to act in a certain way, to sort of test that strength and independence of the judicial system. What sort of mechanisms are in place to -- at Grand Traverse -- to ensure the insulation of the judiciary from that sort of unhealthy interference and ensure that it can in fact enact the cultural values, it can actually judge cases based on their merits and mete out justice in a fair and a consistent fashion?"

John Petoskey:

"Well, this is not something that is in place in terms of institutions, but on the executive-legislature side, there are seven councilors and the councilors don't always agree with each other, but they're all from the community and they all have...they all bring their common experience from the community to their positions on the council and they disagree amongst themselves and they recognize that some of those disagreements have to be resolved by the judiciary. And if Councilor A has a position against Councilor B and Councilor A is going to try to influence the judiciary to impermissibly or in some manner that is not straightforward in the procedural process, then Councilor B is going to object to that and Councilor B is going to then use Councilor B's authority within the context of the executive-legislative branch to bring that objection forward. And so it is a self-policing method of checks and balances, of different policy positions on the combined executive-legislative council. And so in that sense, even though the value is consensus of trying to get to a consensus and once the council does arrive at a consensus, it generally goes forward from that position. Arriving at that consensus involves very heated arguments between the individual councilors as to what is the appropriate course of action and if that heated argument or those differences manifest themselves in a dispute in the judiciary then Councilor A's attempt to determine the outcome in the judiciary is going to violate the rights of Councilor B and Councilor B is not going to acquiesce to that and is going to take action against A in the context of the executive-legislative process. That's realistically the way that works. I don't know if you formalize that process in some other method."

Ian Record:

"I guess what about for instance if it's not...if it doesn't involve a difference of opinion with two council members, but say, for instance, I'm a citizen and I feel that for whatever reason that the case before the court needs to be decided in my favor and I call up one of these councilors and say, "˜You need to do what I ask and I voted for you,' kind of thing and this may not be something you're familiar with because it doesn't sound like this is a common occurrence at Grand Traverse. Unfortunately this is a common occurrence in a lot of other tribes that we've worked with. I guess is it sort of values and sort of community norms that prevents a lot of that from taking place or is there something formal within the constitutional framework that Grand Traverse has developed that prevents that sort of thing?"

John Petoskey:

"Within the constitutional framework the judiciary is independent. That's a categorical statement. The hypothetical that you posited has occurred and I am familiar with cases in which tribal members have called up councilors and say, "˜I don't agree with this court's decision because it's wrong,' and the councilors have come back to the council and said, "˜Judge is wrong in this basis, what should we do?' and other councilors say, "˜Well, it's a independent judiciary,' and you get back into the methodology that I was talking about earlier where A and B are arguing over the proper policy. We're lucky in one sense that one of our councilors is a former chief judge on our court and chief judge on other courts in Michigan. So that particular councilor is...has been in the shoes of a judiciary and has been involved in inter-branch fights between the judiciary and the executive-legislature. But we have not had extreme cases at Grand Traverse Band. I can...I don't want to...there have been cases in Michigan in which one where the executive branch and the judicial branch got into such an extreme dispute that the judicial branch ordered the arrest and incarceration of the executive branch, and typically it's the other way around. All of the hypotheticals that you've been positing involve the executive pressuring the judiciary, but in this particular case it was the judiciary that ordered the arrest of the executive over an election dispute where the holdover council was not vacating office and the executive branch was actually arrested and then the petition for habeas corpus was filed in federal district court to release the executive branch, that the judicial order was invalid. So it goes both ways I'm saying."

Ian Record:

"It sounds like at Grand Traverse there's a controlling dynamic within the executive-legislative function where if there is an individual council member who's being pressured by a constituent to interfere in the judicial function that the other council members remind that individual on the council of their role, what their role is and what their role is not. Speaking more broadly, what do you feel is the role of elected leadership in supporting the strength and independence and supporting the growth of justice systems, because for instance at Grand Traverse, your justice system has grown by leaps and bounds over the past 20 years and won an award from Honoring Nations for the incredible work it's been doing and not just building a strong and independent court system, but also making sure that that system is culturally appropriate and reflecting and enacting the values of the people. What do you feel the role of leaders are in supporting the justice function?"

John Petoskey:

"At Grand Traverse Band or in general?"

Ian Record:

"Just in general I think."

John Petoskey:

"Well, my response would be if you look at other systems -- the federal system, the state system -- there have always been disputes over the scope of judicial power in the...in federal court, in federal jurisdiction, what is the appropriate scope of federal jurisdictional power and what is the scope of its ability to resolve disputes. Justice Breyer makes a big point of this if you look at the election dispute between Bush v. Gore, it was a decision that was by the Supreme Court that was widely recognized as invalid in terms of its substantive analysis of the law, but nevertheless the whole country said, once the decision came out, "˜Well, game over,' because there's a strong judicial system and once the decision was rendered, good, bad or indifferent, that's it. Everybody folded their respective tents and went home and George Bush became president when he probably should not have been president on the substantive law basis, but a wrong decision on the merits is still a final decision and the parties respect that. And so you would hope that tribal court systems would evolve to that level of behavior where people would see that finality even for a bad decision. Of course Bush probably didn't think it was a bad decision, but they would evolve to that level of behavior that even for a bad decision, it's the final decision and you go forward. Nobody brought out the Army or guns or anything to enforce Bush v. Gore. The only thing that was done was Scalia saying, "˜Well, this case shouldn't be cited for any other precedent, just for the unique circumstances in George Bush as president.'

And the other cases, Justice Stephens and the other Justices, Stephens in particular, forcefully argued that it was a sad day for the judiciary, but they were arguing on the merits of what the decision was. Nobody was saying, "˜Well, are people going to abide by this? Are they going to follow this decision?' and ultimately that didn't even come up. The values were so engrained that everybody just followed that decision, but that was a hard-fought value because you go back to Brown v. Board of Education. When that came out, you had George Wallace standing at the entrance of a public university screaming, "˜Segregation now! Segregation forever!' saying, "˜I will not move and allow black people into this university,' and tremendous fights, killings, murders, just tremendous pain and suffering for the implementation of the Civil Rights decisions. So when you look at Indian Country, Indian Country is not something that is any different because we're all humans trying to resolve complex disputes and we're using different methodologies to resolve those disputes."

Ian Record:

"And I think it would be important for folks to keep in mind that while a lot of these justice systems are working...tribal justice systems are working to integrate, enact longstanding cultural values, the systems themselves are relatively new in many cases in that these were justice systems that were established in the "˜50s, "˜60s, "˜70s, "˜80s many of them, and it takes a long time in many of those communities for those systems to gain the legitimacy that you're talking about. Your colleague Frank Pommersheim, I had opportunity to interview him and he made the exact same point that the true test of a strong independent judiciary is, 'Do people respect the decision even though they disagree with it, particularly elected leadership?'"

John Petoskey:

"Yes."

Ian Record:

"That's the true test. They may not like the decision, they may not like the outcome but they're not going to blow the place up over the fact that they disagree with it."

John Petoskey:

"Right. That is a good test. And that...and nobody arrives at that without some pain and suffering, and that's why I brought out Brown v. Board of Education. Here you had the Supreme Court saying, "˜Segregation in education is constitutionally impermissible,' and you certainly had southern states saying, "˜It is not and we're not going to allow the decision to be implemented. Impeach Earl Warren.'"

Ian Record:

"So one of the things that in terms of how Native nations and governments and the other branches or functions of government can support tribal judiciaries...one of the things you and I were talking about yesterday was this issue of funding and what we've often heard tribal judges lament about is the fact that, "˜In our tribe the elected leadership treat us like we're just another department when really we serve a fundamental function of any society, which is to resolve disputes, which is to in many instances serve as a check on the abuse of power, the abuse of authority by the other functions of government. How important is it for leaders of nations...of tribal nations to have that mindset that the judicial system is more than just another department of government and fund it accordingly and really place an emphasis on putting the judicial system sort of at the top when it comes to allocating budgetary resources for instance?"

John Petoskey:

"Well, obviously my point is that judicial systems should be funded and the de-funding of judicial systems for political purposes should be categorically impermissible, because today's decision may be something that you support but tomorrow's decision may be something that you oppose and so the funding of judicial decisions based upon past precedent of the courts or decisions that they made shouldn't be in the equation of how you fund the judicial system. The conversation that we had was that I haven't seen any information on the relationship of how you...what the ratio is of the federal government's funding of its judicial system over its total budget, and I'm sure it could be easy to figure out, but I just haven't seen that in print someplace. At Grand Traverse Band, we have a revenue allocation ordinance and we did set up a system of funding the judicial system by a percentage of our income, our net income that we receive from various enterprises, largely gaming. At the time that we passed the RAO [revenue allocation ordinance] it was, I forget the exact number, but it was something like four percent or seven percent is going to go to the judicial system. And just through circumstances of gaming, like a lot of tribes over the last 20 years, the net income of gaming has risen dramatically like a jet taking off into the stratosphere. Those are numbers out there that everybody is family with. So we had this RAO number of four to seven percent that the judicial system received as a direct level of funding that was not to be...it was enacted by the statute and so once our enterprises took off, the amount of money that the judicial system was receiving was extraordinary. It got very high very quickly and because our enterprises were successful."

Ian Record:

"But I would imagine that as your enterprise got successful you're engaged in more commercial dealings, there's more disputes, there's the case load of the court system grows."

John Petoskey:

"Yes, yes, there is that argument, but my point is I haven't seen any good research on how you arrive at the appropriate level of funding for a judicial system. You do have the method of GPRA, of performance-based funding for projected future funding on outcomes with present resources and that's how you do programmatic funding for activities and then you have federal funding where federal priorities come into smaller communities and those are competitive grants that we look at and then you have what are called the self-governance BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs], AFA, annual funding agreements through self-governance taking over certain sections of what is known as the 'green book,' which is the budget book of the Department of Interior for funding and they have a number of formulas that are in that book based on the appropriate level of funding for different activities that the BIA is engaged in in administering an Indian reservation and just in a thumbnail in self governance is a tribe has shown that it can administer those programs just as well as the BIA through no audit exceptions, therefore they get control of that line item in the green book to administer the program or to reallocate to any other function. My point that I was getting to is that I don't see the formula for tribal court funding. Clearly funding should not be a political animal in terms of past decisions or future decisions, but there should be some formula methodology to determine what the appropriate level of funding is."

Ian Record:

"So Grand Traverse, by all accounts, has operated this strong and independent court system for quite a while that it consistently and fairly dispenses justice. What sort of messages do you feel that that sends to outsiders that interact with Grand Traverse in terms of how it does business, how it governs? Do you feel that there's been a positive ripple effect of the way that Grand Traverse dispenses justice that supersedes the reservation boundaries?"

John Petoskey:

"Well, yes. These sound like leading softball questions, but yes. Some of the things that we do at Grand Traverse is what other tribes do and some tribes do it much better than we do. I haven't looked at their site recently, but I know Ho Chunk had a very good site on their judicial opinions and we try to model our site on our judicial opinions. We set up all of our opinions into VersusLaw and into WesLaw and so they're categorized into the WesKey number system. They're available... we try to make them available... before the internet came online we did create a... all of our opinions available in the local law libraries when everybody was using hard copies to do research. We made arrangements with the county law libraries that they would have copies of our code, that they would have copies of all of our opinions that were issued. And then several years ago, it hasn't been updated, but Matthew Fletcher, who a lot of people know in the Indian law world, is a member of Grand Traverse Band and used to work at Grand Traverse Band as an attorney, assistant general counsel for about four years, and after he left he wrote a restatement of Grand Traverse Band's common law based upon all of the opinions published up until that point. And so we direct people to that on a regular basis to tell them, "˜This is the restatement of the common law as of X date. It hasn't been updated, but these are the opinions on a chronological basis that you can find that are available.' Our statutes are published online. We do have a qualified, when I say qualified, it's not as detailed as the Administrative Procedures Act, but we do have a process of legislative enactment in which we publish proposed bills for comment by our tribal members and before enactment and comments come in and the tribal council reacts to those comments either accepting or rejecting, and making appropriate decisions based on the comments and some bills as a result of that comment process have taken a long time to get through to enactment because some of the issues are extremely contentious internally with the tribe over the appropriate standard that the bill is implementing on the standard of behavior.

So I think the common denominator of what I just said is transparency throughout the whole process. Transparency throughout the judicial process in terms of the court publishing its opinions, making them widely available to individuals, the transparency of legislative acts being widely apparent to individuals. Grand Traverse Band is now going for its executive-legislative function to publish their proceedings online so that people who are tribal members...and this is an open question on whether non-members would be able to access it, but clearly tribal members would be able to, citizen members would be able to access council meetings to review what took place in the meeting and the process and procedures that were utilized in the meetings. There's discussions right now of doing the same thing for court proceedings that... of tribal court TV, if you will, to make transparency as the same value. So I think the value of transparency is something that is accepted by the majority of the participants in the political process and that has enormous benefits in a cultural norm of checks and balances, if you will, because everybody knows that everything is subject to review and all arguments are...can be developed after the fact, too, because you can look at something or you can be involved in this conversation that we're having right now, it's being recorded and later on I may be sitting at home thinking, "˜God, I should have said that or I should have said this,' and other people will have that same reaction."

Ian Record:

"Doesn't it all boil down to, when it comes down to transparency and the different ways that Grand Traverse is seeking to achieve that, is people who interface with the government, whether it's citizens of the Band or outsiders who may be dealing with the tribe commercially or may live within the community on allotment land or whatever it might be, that they understand not only the decisions that have been made, they're aware of the decisions that are being contemplated, but most importantly they're...they understand the rationale underlying the decision-making process. What is the common law that's driving this or what are the values that's driving this? Is that really at the crux of the whole thing?"

John Petoskey:

"The crux of the whole thing is not to have an indeterminate process; it's to have a determinate process that participants can enter the process at various points and figure out what happened, why it happened, what the future decision is going to be, what the arguments for and against it can be and an indeterminate process, what I see is a situation where the participants and the people who have to suffer the consequences of the decision don't know why something happened or what's going to happen in the future because there's no agreed upon procedure statutorily or there's no agreed upon cultural norm of transparency. And so it makes for an indeterminate future and an indeterminate past because the rationale for some of the decisions in the past were arbitrary, and these are words that are used in administrative law, but are arbitrary and capricious and they're not subject to analysis because they're indeterminate. And so I think the value that Grand Traverse Band is trying to achieve is a process of determinate decision making in its executive-legislative and judicial process, where participants in the process and the people who are subject to the process either as citizens or non-citizens can understand what occurred, why it occurred, and what will occur in the future."

Ian Record:

"So I wanted to wrap up with a few questions that get into a little bit more detail about Grand Traverse Band's approach to jurisprudence. We've been touching again and again on this issue of cultural values, common law, common tribal law and I'm curious, several years ago the Grand Traverse Band formally integrated the peacemaking approach to dispute resolution into its justice system. Can you talk about how that came about, what was the impetus, what does it look like, how does it work?"

John Petoskey:

"Well, the value of the peacemaking court...first of all, I want to acknowledge that Navajo Nation started with peacemaking court and I'm not familiar with the full scope of that, but I know that they had a peacemaking court long before other tribes did and brought in their values and cultural tradition to the resolutions of disputes that were involved on family relations. And at that time, our chief judge, his name is Mike Petoskey, he's not my brother, we're often confused because we're close in age and look alike. He is my first cousin. He was our tribal judge and had been our tribal chief judge for about 15 years and he was familiar with a lot of Navajo judges because he went to law school at the University of New Mexico and he had a common experience with some of these judges based upon their military experience in Vietnam and similar life experience even though these people were from the interior of Navajo, Lukachukai. So it was Ray Austin that he was a good friend with. I think Ray has published a book on the Navajo judicial systems. And Mike and Ray had been friends for many years, well, going to law school and had a common denominator even though they were widely geographically dispersed and culturally dispersed, one being Ottawa and one being Navajo. And so Mike was dealing with the types of problems that come up in Indian communities that are families-in-crisis problems and part of the way of resolving those problems in the non-Indian society under child abuse and neglect and families in need of supervision under the state model, if you look at their codes, are very destructive to the individual family unit because the resolution is, "˜This is not going to work so we're going to terminate the parental rights. We want to take the child away. We're going to sanction the parent and the family is dispersed.' I'm not saying that across the board, but that is one model that the family law in non-Indian society uses to resolve families in crisis and that may work if you have a larger group that you're...of people that you're dealing with and larger resources. But the tribe didn't have the larger resources and the group that it's dealing with is a common core of people that are related to each other across time and terminating and dispersing the family is not something that is...that the tribe wants to do, because a lot of the historical experience of the tribal members is suffering the state system of termination and dispersal of the family and then slowly finding your way back to the community. And so an alternative is to try to fix the destructive family patterns that exist within the family in question or whatever family it is. I don't have any family in question, I'm just saying this is how or what the situations that came up and the way to do that is to bring in other members of the extended family into a whole process of saying, "˜Well, what is the problem and why are you behaving in this manner that creates destructive consequences for your children or destructive consequences for your husband or wife or for your mother or father or for your aunts and uncles?' The behavior of one individual has a ripple effect like the stone in the pond that goes out into the whole community. And so the concept of peacemaking is to recognize that and to bring all of the people in the pond, if you will, that feel that ripple effect into the process to resolve that stone and to engage in dialogue, and there is a value within the Ottawa and Ojibwe tradition that all of our inter-family relationships are really community-based relationships and extend out to everybody and that a resolution of those community-based relationships of necessity involves all of these people that it extends out to because your actions today do not just impact your nuclear family, your husband, wife, mother, daughter. They also impact your aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, grandparents, and so bringing that whole group together or the principles within that group to work on the solution for that behavior is better than viewing it as a nuclear unit of a family, husband, wife, children and that's it and that as the scope of what the community was that had to be fixed. And the peacemaking court was to say, if you look at the larger community which everybody is impacted by this behavior and you try to bring the larger community into that process with the individual that is misbehaving, if you will, and saying, "˜This is what your behavior is causing to the whole community and we are here to help you to resolve that behavior,' and to bring the person back into the community by explaining what the impacts of their behavior has on the whole community. That's the fundamental concept. There's a long Indian word that I can't pronounce that my wife [Eva Petoskey] can, and so you might bring that up with her, and she has a better grasp of the language than I do."

Ian Record:

"So how in your estimation has it worked out so far, the use of peacemaking for Grand Traverse?"

John Petoskey:

"It's worked out well because it...there are a lot of people in Indian Country that are in pain and suffering for a variety of...this is sort of a leftist orientation, but of historical trauma, of what your parents and grandparents went through and so that has an impact on your present life and when I was talking about just looking at my own life, I'm 61 years old and I can look back to see my grandparents who I knew were born in the 1870s and there's been tremendous change from where my children are right now who were born in the 1990s and are in graduate school in college and going through different changes of their own, but we're all connected to this one place and we're all from this one place and we all grew up there. But the change is constant and for Grand Traverse Band since 1980 in the scale of things change has been positive for the community. The community has reasserted its traditions and reasserted its control over its community and when it lost its control over its community it lost control over its traditions because we weren't directing our lives, we were being directed by other people and so directing our lives even if it's in an impaired and fractured community is a process of healing that community and so that peacemaking court in the method that I just described is a process of resolving a lot of disputes that are very, very difficult and very difficult to resolve and that take a lot of time. It's not ever going to be perfect and it's not ever going to be over, it's always going to change."

Ian Record:

"As a final question, what I'm struck by in hearing you and others talk about the peacemaking approach is that often the western adversarial system, which is focused on punitive measures tends to focus on the symptom, which is the misbehavior whereas, peacemaking really seeks to get at the root cause of what's driving this behavior and sort of...and attacking that root cause to prevent that from happening again rather than punishing someone for what has already happened. Is that basically how it works?"

John Petoskey:

"I would say yes, but again I would say my wife has a better handle on that, but it's bringing in the community and the impacts on the community and saying to the individual, "˜You should have empathy and compassion for the acts that you're doing and the impacts on people that you have relationships with, long-term relationships with.' Sometimes they're loving relationships, sometimes they're not loving relationships, they're stressful relationships, but the point is everybody has a consequence for their behavior and those consequences are felt by the whole community and it's trying to say to the individual, "˜Your behavior affects the whole community and the whole community is here to try to tell you that to change your behavior so those consequences don't impact us,' because they do."

Ian Record:

"Well, John, we really appreciate you agreeing to serve as a fellow with the Native Nations Institute and agreeing to sit down with us today and sharing your thoughts, experience and wisdom with us. And this is part one of a two-part interview. We'll be interviewing you again this week in more detail about some of the work you've done in terms of developing Grand Traverse's legal infrastructure and I'd like to thank you for your time today. And that's all the time we have on today's program of Leading Native Nations. To learn more about Leading Native Nations, please visit the Native Nations Institute's website at nni.arizona.edu. Thank you for joining us. Copyright 2013 Arizona Board of Regents."

Joseph Flies-Away: The Role of Justice Systems in Nation Building

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

In this in-depth interview with NNI's Ian Record, Joseph Flies-Away, citizen and former chief judge of the Hualapai Tribe, discusses the central roe that justice systems can and should play in Native nation rebuilding efforts, how justice systems serve as platforms for healing and cultural renewal, and what Native nations can do to create strong and independent justice systems capable of facilitating nation rebuilding.

Native Nations
Resource Type
Citation

Flies-Away, Joseph. "The Role of Justice Systems in Nation Building." Leading Native Nations interview series. Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management, and Policy, The University of Arizona. Tucson, Arizona. September 20, 2009. Interview.

Ian Record:

"I'm very pleased today to be here with Joe Flies-Away, who's a member of the Hualapai Tribe and also, until recently, the chief justice of the tribe for the tribal court system. And we're here today to talk about tribal justice systems and specifically the role that they can play in Native nation building, rebuilding Native communities. And so that was actually going to be my first question to you is, what, based on your vast experience not only as a tribal judge, but also in the other capacities you've served for your nation as a legislator and also a planner involved with developing the economic development arm of your nation, what role or roles can tribal justice systems play in rebuilding Native nations?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, the first question to look at or the first issue is what is a justice system? A lot of people just think it's a court, but a justice system may include many parts. And so if it's just the court system, judicial system, the judges and that, that's one part, but then the whole system...so people need to always think about, what are they talking about? But a good judicial system, a court system would contribute to stability and peace and harmony and the things that people talk about. In economic issues or economic development, it creates a plane on which other people may want to be a part of or invest in. So there's a lot of different ways to look at it. I break things up when I talk about these issues in four parts; the people, the policy, the place, and the pecuniary possibilities. The people part, the court system or justice system, can create peace and harmony or goodness between people or solve conflicts, resolve issues between people, parties, whatever. The policy is the law, common law. Court systems help develop common law. The legislators will write law but a court system will develop court orders, which will create a common law. So that policy section is about law and government structure. The third, place. Place is like environmental support. So issues that may be clean air, clean water or contributes to good environment types of things. And then structure, like water and sewer and all that type of thing. Some governments are billing for water usage, sewer, solid waste and all this kind of thing. So that area, they can help make good decisions when someone's in conflict with a utility company. So that's the place. The pecuniary possibility is the economic development. They could help in decisions that create a good place for people to feel comfortable about doing business, about doing commerce, about entering into contracts, those types of things. So all of those areas can be covered by a good judicial system if it is functioning well and the parts are running well. A lot of times, however, that may not be the case."

Ian Record:

"So what does a...you talked about judicial systems, justice systems and you talked about it in a broad sense. What do those systems look like or maybe what do those systems require to be effective?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, I guess one of the things to look at with that question is it depends on that tribe. A lot of tribes will opt to develop a court system that's modeled right after the Anglo-American state court and they want to just, ‘Okay, we should be just like that.' Other systems may want to be a peacemaker court or more culturally based, culturally accordant type of system, where it brings in elders or brings in panel of people to help solve an issue, consensus-based issue or consensus-based decision making. So it would depend on what system they're in. But if they're doing a, say an Anglo-type state court system, they have to have all the parts. They have to have the ability to file papers, the ability to have that claim be processed in a court docket by court clerks, go through the system, be timely, mailed out, timely served, timely set on the docket schedule hearing and all of those parts that you would necessarily need to have a hearing, and then the decision process with the judge or jury -- or if it's a civil case, depending on what it is -- all those parts need to be well working. But sometimes there's always a problem with one part and so that may mess it up, but all of those, if it's an Anglo system-like model, then all those things.

The peacemaking side, it would be up to the tribe. That's a development that tribes are doing. They can create a system any way they want to make it. The one thing they need to have -- that I tell people when I talk to them -- is, ‘Just make sure you give notice to all the people and due process. If you do all that and however you do it is going to be great.' So how they fashion that system is going to be based on whether or not they give good due process and notice to the parties. ‘Here, this is what you need to come to court for and this is what we're going to talk about, be prepared. And these are the people who are going to be there to help decide,' and what not. But all the tribes, they can create... like Navajo has peacemaking. They have a peacemaker that comes in and that person will sit and hear all these parties, the families, everyone, and go through maybe a day-long discussion or maybe longer. A peacemaking in that sense... culturally accordant decision or dispute resolution systems like that, they actually take a lot of time, which we don't always have. That's the conundrum.

So it depends on the tribes. If you have a state model, it's those things that are necessary which most of us maybe can see. Well, hopefully you haven't been to court all the time. But if it's a tribal system, a culturally accordant system that's based in their culture, then I don't know all those parts. It would be based in what they have developed and it would be unique, and again, as long as they have due process. So there are different ways of looking at it. Justice systems in Indian Country are for Native people. They can be so creative if they really want to be, but a lot of people have chosen not to be yet, so hopefully they'll be developing more."

Ian Record:

"You mentioned some tribes that...or the fact that tribes can be very creative in developing their justice systems and reclaiming their justice systems in many cases. Do you...can you possibly share some examples of tribes that have been creative?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, I've...the Grand Traverse Band [of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians] up in Michigan, they have a peacemaking-type person who does peacemaking and they do that. Karuk, they have peacemakers. Navajo Nation, they have peacemakers. They have sentencing circles up in Canada, places like that. So there are...and in Alaska, they'll have a panel of five elders...but they had five elders come and they sit there and they heard a lot of juvenile cases and they would sit there and lecture the kid for whatever he or she did wrong and so they can create all that. The problem...and like in Bethel [Alaska] they kind of do similar things or up in Barrow [Alaska] they would have a group of judges not... and maybe some elders but they would make decisions collectively. The collective decision-making process is a very tribal practice. So that's how they do it. Sometimes the issue is writing down their decision. Who's going to write it down? And we need again to have...that's part of the due process -- a decision that's a record, record a record, keep the record, make a decision, give it to them. Sometimes that doesn't happen very well, but those are places that have tried to do that and others are trying to develop wellness courts or drug courts. State court systems have what they call drug courts, Native courts have healing to wellness courts and they kind of follow the same process, but they have a team that helps make decisions and the judge helps make the decisions for an individual person who's dealing with drugs and alcohol problems, so then they're doing different things in that. So different tribes are doing those types of things."

Ian Record:

"So essentially what you're saying is, as tribes are reclaiming control over their governing systems, you're seeing an increasing amount of diversity among justice systems in Indian Country?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, some are just, like I said, modeling, but a lot of others are trying to do something that either is like what they used to do or is a hybrid of what they used to do, because we can't go back and do it exactly the same. We can't go back and be exactly how we were, but you can find ways or maybe the spirit of it and bring it forward and put it into a structure or process that models something that was in the past, and I see that happening in some places."

Ian Record:

"A lot of the Native Nations Institute and Harvard Project research has focused on this issue of court systems and their role for instance in creating that environment you talked about, an environment for investment, an environment of confidence, of stability. What...and what the research has shown is that among nations that have what are termed independent court systems where there's...there are, essentially those court systems render decisions, practice jurisprudence free of interference from the other either branches of governments, functions of government, elected officials who represent those other functions of government. Those nations tend to perform better in the area of economics and things of that nature. What from your experience do independent court systems require, justice systems require?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, that's a separation of powers issue, and I might not agree with all the research that's there, partly because...and I would suppose it's true that they do better if there's an independent court system, but even though...and there's very few who have a constitutional separation of powers court. The latest is maybe 30, 35, 40, I don't know. Somebody would have to do that research and figure it out. Not many people have that. They do it by statute to create a separate branch that is independent. However, what gets in the way...you can write that down in a constitution and a code, but yet the persons who come into the positions of council or even the judges, they do not effectuate it. They act in ways that go against separation of powers. A councilman will go see the judge, the judge will go see councilmen and they talk and it gives the people the appearance of, ‘Well, they're talking, they're in cahoots.' So even if you have a structure, it may not work that way because of the people who are part of it -- people, policy, place, pecuniary possibility -- so the people are always going to be a part of it. But I agree, however, that when the legislative branch or administrative branch of government does not interfere with the judge or go over there and say, ‘Hey, you've got to do it this way,' sure, it's going to be...it will make the decisions feel that they are right or fair and without anyone getting in the way. And it creates an environment where people will say, ‘Well, I'm going to participate in that or try to participate in commerce there because I'm going to get a fair deal.' So, yes, I would agree with that and out there it does work. There are places where there's no separation of powers, however, and it kind of works, too. There's many tribes, so looking at all of them might be very difficult, but again it goes back to the people. If you have a person in the judge job and people in the council job who in their minds understand the importance of separation of powers, say, ‘We don't mess with them, we shouldn't get in their way.' They have no law, they have no constitution, it could work there, too. So it goes back to that human part of it. And I've seen that a lot of time, which the research that people quote doesn't take that into account as much as I think it is there in Indian Country."

Ian Record:

"So yeah, there's this issue of what's culturally acceptable, it may not...or socially, it's expressed through the social mores versus something that's hard and fast on paper."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, in a lot of tribes there was a distinct separation of powers between individuals. Chief did this, medicine man did this, head man did this and gosh, in the Pueblos, very identifiable. You do this, you do that and you don't do this. So it is a cultural base of separation of powers. But there is also this collective decision-making process so...but we have been, since interruption by Anglo-American people we get confused. And so we were, ‘Oh, we knew back here,' but then all these people come and mess us up and we're kind of like confused here and we're trying to move forward and make it right again. But I think there is a history of that. We've just got to find it, appreciate it and maybe there are places where it was always a collective decision and we are so different. That's one thing people should realize. Tribes are very different in the United States, in Canada, all Indigenous people all over the place are different and they can't say, ‘Oh, well, they're Indian and they're going to do it all the same.' We aren't all the same and so individuals working or individuals seeking to do business with them or in commerce or any other way they need to know what type or where they're coming from or where that group is coming from."

Ian Record:

"You mentioned about this issue of investment, that when you have an effective court system, an effective rule of law in place and working in the community and the nation, that it creates this stability and this confidence for investors in commerce as you mentioned, but doesn't it also hold true for citizens of that nation, for members of the nation to say, ‘Hey, if I have a dispute or something, it's going to be resolved fairly on the merits,' that sort of thing?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"It goes to that, too. Custody issues, divorce issues, all of those types of things will be effective beneficially by a good court system that isn't tampered with by anyone, that they are listening to the information, the evidence presented, they're listening to the parties only and they're making the best decision based on the law written or the law and custom and what is told to them and any kind of dispute that is brought, elections, all types of things. If there's no tampering with it, the independence of those institutions of dispute resolutions then create a better environment for everybody in all those ways."

Ian Record:

"So you mentioned there's a need...in order for tribal justice systems to be effective, not only to be effective, but to be legitimate, viewed as legitimate in the eyes of most importantly the people that it serves, that there has to be a sense of fairness and the sense of essentially political support. So support by elected officials in the other branches, if you will, that this is their function, this is their job. And you also mentioned previously that this issue of...for tribal justice systems to be effective, they need to have effective bureaucracies within those systems. We've heard tribal leaders from other nations lament the fact that in their communities often fellow leaders don't view tribal justice systems as essentially a stand-alone branch, but they view them more as a department of the government and perhaps as a result don't fund them accordingly, don't really support them to the degree that they need to be supported. Is that something you've experienced, and how critical is that issue?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"I experience that in my own court, yes. It is unfortunate, but it's the same with the United States government. When the U.S. Supreme Court was created, they were in the basement, they were in the closet, they were in the bar, they were in the old place where the legislator was. It wasn't until 1958 that they got their own building, and that's like 150 years. So we're just following them. But yes, tribal governments, some of them will tend to not give the full -- I'm not sure of the word -- but they don't give it all to that court system and say, ‘You are a branch of government,' particularly in those that are branches, for instance at Hualapai. Hualapai there are two branches of government, the judicial system and the legislative, but the judicial system does not get all the resources it needs. It doesn't have a building, but maybe we have to wait 150 years like the United States Supreme Court, which I guess isn't so bad. But yes, and then they think of it because they are funded by consolidated grant funds from the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It's like, ‘Well, we're just giving them money and it's a programmatic decision and so they're just funding them at this amount.' The court system there though gets a lot of money from that grant. But it's not enough for that branch of government to really do the best job possible, to really be the...make the best decisions. To do what it needs to do for the people, it needs a lot more resources and that's the same for a lot of places that I've been. I've been to a lot of court systems and a lot of tribes from Alaska to Florida seeing what they do in different ways and that is a story that's similar, that the governments need to pay more attention to their...particularly if they have a constitutional branch of government, support it like a branch and not like just a program. And it would do them well. But it does go on, but you see little efforts like at other places where they're building big buildings like Gila River, Fort McDowell, they can see some contribution or some investment in those court systems, but that's just the shell. What's inside of it there are sometimes issues with. Pretty shell, the feeling isn't yet solid. So that also needs...but then they're at least going in a good direction."

Ian Record:

"Among those nations that perhaps haven't realized the importance, do you think it's in part this sense of, they're either dismissing or not understanding how important tribal justice systems can be as a vehicle for advancing their nation-building priorities?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, that goes to a leadership issue, so that's a whole other realm of things, but tribal leaders sometimes are new, they're just figuring out what their decisions must be and they are bombarded with papers and papers and papers and people and, ‘Can you do this for me?,' and all this stuff, so there is so much volume of requests and responsibility, that part of it is just that, 'I can't get to it,' and they don't have enough time to really study and appreciate that part of their government. So part of it's just that. Other part says, well, they might not like the court system. Maybe the court did something bad to them, I don't know, but I think the main part is they just don't have enough time to devote to really understanding that. And again, they are new sometimes, they're young, they haven't spent much time and they have a...councilmen have a particular focus sometimes. They wanted to be on council maybe for a particular issue and then they're spending more time on that -- environment and economic development -- but yet if somebody was really teaching them, like if NNI [the Native Nations Institute] was really showing this, that how is that all related. They have to see that and somebody needs to bring it altogether. And sometimes I see a lot of training that's always separate and it's not whole. So there's different issues why, but I always just think sometimes...I guess it's a positive reason, they just don't have enough time. There's too much to do as a council leader, council member and it's...they're drowning in work."

Ian Record:

"One of your judicial colleagues, a woman named Theresa Pouley, she's a judge at the Tulalip Tribal Court, who...they've become one of the pioneers in Indian Country in terms of reclaiming their justice systems. They started essentially a restorative system of justice."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, I think it's the heart, 'good-heart' thing. Is that them?"

Ian Record:

"I can't remember, but the reason I bring her up is we had occasion to bring her here to address one of our assemblies of tribal leaders for one of our seminars and she said something, which really struck me, which was that many nations are really missing out on the opportunity they have with tribal justice systems to use those systems, to use the form of a tribal court, for instance, as a vehicle to express the core values of the people, to really...to share those core values, to advance those core values among the people because in those scenarios within that forum, you're dealing with issues of family, you're dealing with issues of community, of society and this is where we have a real opportunity here. And she said that's what they're trying to do at Tulalip is through this, developing this common law through this restorative justice approach, to really re-instill a lot of those core values."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, the court system is...our judicial system -- or whatever you want to call it -- is one of the places that will save the culture, if they look at it that way. A lot of people don't see that. Any issue brought to the court, the court...there's written law, but then if they could look and see, well, 'What was the practice, common practice, the culture in this area?' And upon decision -- and if they have appellate court and goes through and solidified there -- a cultural understanding of something can be written down and recorded, and that is the way it will be from hence on. Yes, a lot of tribes don't think of that and that is one thing that a judicial system can do, if the people in it know, but a lot of times, the players don't know that. They want to be the judge or there's a judge and they're judging, but they're not thinking about that and...but it is...a judicial system is a way to save culture in a way and it's just not used that much all the time."

Ian Record:

"So I want to talk...we've touched on this issue of political interference in tribal jurisprudence and I guess I will just ask you flat out, based on your experience, what are some of the impacts, I would assume a lot of those impacts would be negative, when politics is allowed to interfere in tribal jurisprudence?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, it creates a system where people can't believe there's going to be good decisions -- inconsistency: ‘Well, this guy's going to go over there and have the judge do something different, but then another person will come and it'll be like the one before.' It creates inconsistent decision making, favoritism, and altogether in that situation. I've had previously council members try to say to me in writing, ‘This is what you should do.' And I would write back, ‘No, you can't tell me to do that.' And it's only happened twice to my recollection, because we actually have a separation of powers by constitution; there's laws there. But in other places, it does happen, and unfortunately that's where the people then start having no belief in that system. They'll say, ‘Why should I go there? It's only going to be changed or so and so is going to be able to change it or affect the decision,' and they don't feel comfortable, there's no comfortability in the decision-making process, there's no faith in it, and then again inconsistent decisions because X will get this and Y will get that because of the interference. And it may happen in different ways directly. One way that I think it does occur is by money. Sometimes the legislative branch will say, ‘Well...' or the administrator might say, ‘Well, you're just not going to get all your money,' and then the judge, ‘I guess I have to do something else,' or something. So it's different ways it can happen. But I think that's becoming less and less, I would hope. I would really hope that that's how it is because when I talk to judges, we only talk and they have that sense of -- particularly if it's written down -- you can't do that, but even if it's not there, we all understand as judges there's a separation by practice or just by feeling, I guess, that judges make the decisions and they're not too affected, and a lot of us understand that and they do their best. Unfortunately maybe in some places some judges come and some judges go, they get fired and that happens, too."

Ian Record:

"So in that situation when you have a justice system that is experiencing political interference and you have that...essentially the people in the community receiving that message that you're talking about. Well, this shows them that this is the way things are being done, it's inconsistent. That message also ripples beyond reservation borders, does it not, to the outside world?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, it would go beyond. It goes through to other people in the next communities and they'll call it a 'kangaroo court.' There are...we're looking at courts in California and Public Law 280 states and some people would prefer not to go to the court system, their own court, if they had one. Some have one, some don't. If they were going to develop their court system...I remember one individual saying to me, ‘No, no, I don't want to go to a court system here. My decision...they'll tell everybody what happened.' They have the faith...no faith in that, so they would even choose, even if they had a justice system... a court system on the reservation, go to the state system because they have jurisdiction as well on certain issues. So that's just among the members, but then people talk, they'll say, ‘Well, god, our court system is ridiculous. You can't get a good decision there,' and it goes beyond and then it creates a whole system where no one wants to deal with the court. But again, I am believing that that's less and less. I'm hoping. I mean, people probably could tell me, no, that's still happening, but I would hope that it's becoming less and less."

Ian Record:

"Switching gears just a bit, Joe, I'd like to talk a bit about this issue of tribal jurisdiction and what from your perspective are the major challenges facing tribal jurisdiction today, kind of just in the panoramic sense, and then how can Native nations overcome those challenges and specifically how can they use their own justice systems to overcome those challenges?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, the jurisdiction question is just by itself a question that judges have to ask [in] every case: ‘Do I have jurisdiction in this matter,' and while in some cases it looks obvious, sometimes it isn't and...but I believe court systems or judges for tribes should push the envelope on jurisdiction as much as they possibly can legally anyway, if they're a member and something happened over here, but they're still a member and it says you have jurisdiction over members and why not. I've had judges tell me, ‘No, you can't because it happened over here, the incident,' but you still have jurisdiction of the member and we kind of go back and forth on it. But I would push it a little bit because it... the more jurisdiction you exercise, the greater power, the greater sovereign power you're exercising. So it's a bigger thing. But there are other jurisdictions next to you, or even tribes actually argue over cases, kids' cases for instance. One party's here, one party's there, and there's a kid involved. I've had discussions with judges where, ‘That's my case,' and ‘No, no, no, that's my case,' and I'm, ‘Come on, we've got to...let's figure this out.' And so I've been able to talk with judges and we would figure it out. ‘Okay, well, you do this part of it until that part's done and then we'll finish it over here,' or vice versa. So even tribes have jurisdictional questions that they can work out. I know a lot of judges who have talked together and we call each other on certain cases. It's the state system if you're Public Law 280 or [it's] unknown who does have jurisdiction, like it happened here to a member or something. I've talked to state judges before asking them, ‘Are you going to take this case or what are you...,' like a probation issue, something happens on probation over there, on probation here, something happened at both places and sometimes they'll say, ‘Well, you can just handle it, I'll waive it over here,' and go back and forth on it. So it's that having the power to deal with something is something all courts have to first decide and then you get into issues. Well, if there's another judge thinking the same thing, then you have to deal with them or the lawyers do that. In some cases there are no lawyers in tribal courts. So the judges play more of an active role. When there's no advocacy like that, judges do a little bit more. As more and more lawyers come to tribal court, then maybe we'll do less and less of that, but...because they're really supposed to do that, but a lot of tribal courts don't have the lawyers to say, ‘You don't have jurisdiction here, judge,' and, ‘Yeah, you do,' kind of thing. But the court I believe should assert as much jurisdiction as possible if they can find it in their law and they have a good basis to do so, because again it supports their sovereignty. If they don't do that, if they're always letting it go, they can always say, ‘Concurrent jurisdiction exists, they can do it too, but we're going to do it too,' then they're letting go bits of their power, bits and pieces of their strength to somebody else and that's not a good thing. So it's...that's a question again, every judge has to ask each time a case comes, ‘Do I have jurisdiction?' and in fact in your findings the court has jurisdiction pursuant to a section of the code or whatever, we always have...we should be saying that in our findings. I think for certain tribes, it's much more easy when it's a tribe that's like Hualapai that's all trust land as opposed to like Salt River or Gila River where there's checkerboard fee land involved and all of those types of things. ‘Oh, it's on the reservation, it's fee land,' and every...all those questions you have to ask and certain tribes have it a bit easier, other tribes have it a bit difficult and in Public Law 280 states, a lot of questions."

Ian Record:

"So what I'm hearing from you is this goal of pushing the envelope of jurisdiction is essentially a strategic exercise, where you have to say, ‘Okay, what is going to serve our best interests,' because there's certain areas you could get into but it may not serve you."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, the first priority is the case. I can't think like a tribal council member when I'm a judge, but you look at the case first and if there's a question about jurisdiction that you think you have it or not, then you would, I would push the envelope on jurisdiction if it looks like by law, because that's exercising sovereignty. But I shouldn't be making the decision, ‘I'm going to exercise jurisdiction just because I can,' it should be based in something before I do it, but I think in those decisions a judge would extend their jurisdiction, the long arm of jurisdiction that other courts do, they should do that in the best, in situations when they believe they have the power to do it. Not just...I've seen some cases where judges have just did it and they had no jurisdiction, tribal court judges. It was...they lacked jurisdiction, but they just did it. I don't know if it was a mistake or ignorance or whatever or just being cocky, sometimes that happens."

Ian Record:

"So have you seen some trends emerging in this area of pushing the envelope of jurisdiction through tribal justice systems that you could share, maybe some major areas? I know you mentioned child custody and things like that, but..."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, not specifically, but courts...like in these cases with civil traffic in a road that runs through a reservation. The state has a right of way and then the tribe...it's the tribe's land and they're both going to, there might be a little speeding, they're already giving tickets like that, but some other issue happens and they're going to take that case, but at that same time the county judge is going to want that case because maybe a state officer has filed it there. And then if there's a...then sometimes they'll -- maybe they'll talk, I would -- but some tribes don't talk to their county, they don't get, they have no communication, so things like that where there's ambiguity or there's concurrent jurisdiction. In divorces, it's like if the law on a tribal reservation says, ‘Had to live on the reservation for 90 days, 60 days,' and... but the person actually... it's not... the fact is not so clear and they may assert jurisdiction over that and then the other party might go to the state court and there might be a little issue there and then somebody would really have to present some facts to figure out what law applies and who's going to...but if you believe it, if you believe you have it and I...judges I know, they would probably assert the jurisdiction if they could see it in the pleadings, in the law, they would tend to do that, I believe."

Ian Record:

"I want to switch gears here at this point. We're going to wrap up with kind of a general discussion of what tribal justice... strong, effective tribal justice systems require, but I wanted to touch a bit on this issue of federal Indian law, which is not only a huge issue for tribal judges and tribal justice systems, but it's a huge issue for Native nations overall and certainly a topic that Native leaders need to keep abreast of. And with that in mind, I wanted to ask you a few questions, the first of which deals with something that you as a lawyer are well aware of and that's the Marshall Trilogy, the Cherokee cases, which were handed down in the 1830s and..."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"I wasn't alive then."

Ian Record:

"You weren't alive then, yes. We'll be sure to get that on the record but...and talking with...the federal Indian law experts still universally regard it as the foundation of federal Indian law, and I was curious to know from your perspective how those three Supreme Court decisions continue to impact Native nations and tribal jurisdiction today."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, the one that I think about of those three...Worcester...I can't even say it -- Worcester v. Georgia, I can never say that word. The 'domestic, dependent nation' line and I'm pretty sure it's that case, but I once wrote domestic dependent nation in something I wrote, but our dependent domestic nation, I wrote it backwards, I guess. But that one line in those cases where it deemed a tribal government a nation, I believe has a lot of strength to it. The dependent domestic or domestic...when I teach federal...when I taught federal law, I taught once, I teach in circles and I draw a big circle. Well, I draw a circle and a circle, and then I tell the students, ‘This is a tribe and this is the United States,' and then we do a history. And then I go, ‘Here's the United States,' this is after conquering and we're in the middle and then we throw the state in there at some point, but I do it in circles and I have them say, ‘Okay, here's where we were,' and then as we go...and there's a dotted line, too, because they can come into it, a solid line means you've got no say so like membership would be...and then you have a circle with a circle and in that middle part what you can share and the parts you just don't. I teach it like that and so domestic dependent is, well, you're a circle within a circle, you're within that bigger circle, but you still have a lot of say about what's inside. But I ask the students this question, and I would ask tribal leaders if I taught this...well, I do, I actually do this. I did this at Ysleta del Sur [Pueblo]. I said, ‘What is it, how do you see these circles with Texas with the United States,' or if I'm in California, ‘with California and the United States,' wherever I'm at, I'll include the state and I'll put them through this exercise of drawing these circles, and it's very interesting to see how they all come up with it. And then I'll talk about the nation part and then domestic...but dependent meaning, ‘Well, yeah, we get a lot of money from them, we're dependent on them,' but yet we go through that discussion, but I leave at the end, ‘But we're still a nation,' and that that one case, we should always remember that, that tribal leaders should be conscious of the fact that we're nations. A lot of tribal governments like to use the word 'tribe' and in fact at home some say, ‘Why are we using the word 'nation'? We use the Hualapai Nation and then some like Hualapai Tribe.' Well, the word 'tribe' is a very small word as compared to 'nation' and in English, 'tribe' is a small group of people, 'nation' is a bunch of tribes. And in fact, Hualapai was 13 bands of people and so there was a Pai nation and Hualapai was one band. And so actually if we want to push the thinking to our people that we are a 'nation,' then use that word. If we continue using the word 'tribe,' which some do and that's their decision and that's fine, but it's a smaller sense of it. So I look at that case and I think about the nation and where we fit and the goal however is how we started out. Here's Hualapai or whatever tribe and here's the United States. Go through all of these circles mingling in and I...he processes or the exercises I have the student go through how they all mingle with each other, but the end is to be again like this. The only way you're going to get there, though, to be an independent nation is to do a lot of economic development, to be able to pay for your own things, should not be dependent anymore, to come out of that circle to be not domestic. But that's going to be hundreds, thousands of years away perhaps, but maybe not. I don't know. Some places maybe could do that. So when I teach federal Indian law and we talk about those cases, I really concentrate on that aspect of it and the court was saying, ‘Well, these tribes, though they were conquered...,' and they use all that stuff, Doctrine of Discovery and all those types of things in there, that... Justice [John] Marshall was saying, ‘But they still have a lot of power to themselves and Georgia's laws aren't going to matter, that state's not going to matter to Cherokee.' And so you've got to pull out from those cases what empowers tribal leaders and what empowers tribal members to think like a nation and if you don't do that, we're going to be thinking about a smaller group of people always within a larger group of people, always under their wing, always being under them and never being their own and I think that tribal people need to pull out of that. And if it's just by the meaning of that word, that's one way to do it. So I use those cases to try to pull out those things and of course the legal issues, but I think they're more empowering in a way rather...not just a legal thing...I mean, that's important, but how we are thought of and what we can take from that forward for our people. That's what I think of that. So it may not be such a legal..."

Ian Record:

"It's a philosophical..."

Joseph Flies Away:

"It's a more..."

Ian Record:

"...Mindset change."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, the change...because we've been conquered and cowed people and so we're like, ‘Oh, we've got to pull out and become out here like we started.'"

Ian Record:

"So a more general question, your thoughts on what impacts colonialism, the assimilation policies, and other federal policies generally have had on...had on preexisting Indigenous systems of justice, of dispute resolution, and I guess I would speak to the gravity of the challenge facing many nations in terms of having to rebuild those systems."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, again, if we started here and these people came and interrupted and said, ‘You're going to be like this,' and a lot of us ended up being like this, it took away who we are here. It took away the practices and the ways of our people, of the common practice culture, it took away that. It took it away completely or it took parts away, but a lot of places it just completely took it away. So while we had previously a certain way of doing things, the interaction or the coming of these other people just took away the practices so we aren't who we were. Now tribes can go back and try to reclaim that, but you can't go back and be exactly like that. There are certain practices, like at Hualapai a long, long time ago, if you were really, really bad, they might kill you. There was... I was reading this one thing and I asked my great grandmother, there was medicine people who did not heal, if you didn't heal, they'd beat you up or might kill you. So malpractice was an issue because there was a lot of medicine men back then and they must have been healing because otherwise they would have been out. So we won't do that. The death penalty, tribes probably couldn't do that anymore. So you can't go back and be exactly who you were, but you could pull from that and bring it forward and you can incorporate it. And a lot of people are merging the new way with the old way. I hear people like at a conference like today where they're trying to be back here, but yet all people grow, you go forward. I have this thing, which I wanted to share with them, but I didn't do it. The people gather, ground and grow. That's my community nation-building statement -- that people gather, ground, and grow, and now I say 'green' because of all the green stuff. So they... whoever the people are, they come together and they gather and they figure out their structure and how they're going to relate to each other and they ground themselves and they build structures and institutions and grow, they get stronger and they're going to keep doing that. So it... in that growth portion, they can bring the past forward and take what was powerful and good -- language and what they can remember -- and bring it forward and ceremonies and if they've forgotten all the ceremonies or have in parts of it, well, they can recreate parts of it and bring it forward and put it into now. So tribes can reinvigorate things, and if they did that, then perhaps they'd be a lot more stronger, but when all those people came and messed everything up, they really screwed Native people up. But we have the power to move forward and build better things, better and new things, if they can just see that. Some are, some aren't, some are lagging, some are moving forward, but I think perhaps that's just how they're meant to be at that moment and then perhaps later they'll do better, or maybe not."

Ian Record:

"So I asked you generally about colonialism's impact on tribal justice systems, one of the major watershed pieces of legislation that Congress passed for Indian Country was the Indian Reorganization Act, which was passed in 1934. Many Native nations still operate to this day with essentially the boiler plate system of government, the boiler plate constitution that the IRA set in place, and I was wondering if you could speak to the legacy of the IRA for tribal justice systems."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Again, if we looked at who we were and interaction and then a specific legislation like that -- again, not all tribes signed that, not all tribes are IRA tribes but Hualapai, many are -- it created a constitution for them. It basically said, ‘This is how you're going to be. And it took away the previous way or the way that they were prior and they rearranged their whole structure basically. And it formed a structure of government that just was antithetical or contrary to what they were before. So we're stuck in that in a way. We have at Hualapai a council government. Actually had a 1934, 1955, 1991 constitution. We used to have in one of the previous ones, a chief sit on the council, but for some reason they took that out. I thought that was kind of cool when I found that out, but that's gone, but we could have had like a representative on council from each of the 14 bands. If we were knowing what we could do, we might have done it differently, so when the big-circle government said, ‘This is how you little circle governments are going to do it,' they really interrupted how we were, and I think we struggle with that. I heard someone today talk about Robert's Rules of Order. I said, ‘Who the hell was Robert and why do we care, right?' A lot of people want to follow these rules and why? We could develop our own. When people brought in all these things, a lot of our members, our leaders perhaps, they think we have to stay like that, and we don't have to be that way. So it kind of just stifled everybody. But maybe...and for the sake of it, some of them take it and they do well with it. So there are, but I think a lot of us struggle with that form of government that was told to us, ‘You have to do it like this now,' whereas, it wasn't the way we were. But I think over time, if it's been 100 years, going to be 100 years, maybe they have then adopted it because tribal people are very...they're good at adapting. You gave the people the horse and they became the best horsemen. So if you gave them the IRA government, maybe they're going to make the best of it. I'm thinking positive. But it just...that legislation, however it came when they...one thing I should say, however, when they were trying to do that, that was...it was a way though to give more power back to the people too, I guess. They were saying, ‘Here, you have a way to be...' It was a way of saying, ‘You're going to do your own government,' but they gave it...they gave them a form. They should have said, ‘You have the way to do government, figure it out.' But they didn't -- they gave us structure. So it in a way is good, and then I think now tribal leaders are beginning to say, ‘Well, wait a minute. We don't have to be like this. We don't have to be exactly like United States with a three-branch government and all this kind of stuff.' Hualapai has two branches of government. We can do different things. And I think that that kind of thinking is becoming more and more. So there was many, many years of just stifling. But people did well with it. There was also the corporate shell situation, which they were able to start doing business without being sued and whatnot, so some of that was good. But it is a way...you go somewhere and...it's almost like you see nowadays when America goes all around the world and say, ‘Here, you're going to be like us.' And they're still doing that. They should think back, ‘Wait a minute, we shouldn't be doing this all the time. Let's just kind of help them out, but let's not tell them how to be.' And they don't think they're doing that, but that's how it seems. So there was just an interruption and maybe now we're kind of coming out of that."

Ian Record:

"So you mentioned that Hualapai back in the 1930s adopted the Indian Reorganization Act and what we've seen a cross a lot of tribes who did adopt the IRA is this, essentially this boilerplate clause that left in the hands of the council or the legislative body, the authority to create a court system, and that was essentially the only mention of a judicial function in these governments that they set up. Is that something that Hualapai struggles with, is that something you've seen other tribes struggle with, this trying to reconcile this to say, ‘The judicial function really needs to be a separate function or have its own identity'?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"In '34 we had that boilerplate. In '55, it was similar. But we had a -- what do you call those courts -- a CFR court. And though we had a tribal policeman do all the things that the superintendent guy would tell him to do, it was '91 that we got our own separation of powers. So from the ‘80s to the ‘90s, consultants or lawyers, people are saying, ‘You guys got to do this.' I wasn't around at the time, but it happened and we separated it and we became a two-branch government, but we're one of the few, there's not very many. I don't know what happened back there in the past, but I know there were tribal judges in a tribal court since 1950-something, and a tribal person would be sitting in that chair making decisions for the people, after the superintendent was no longer doing it, and the tribal judge was deciding, but it was more like a CFR court and they were following the laws of the white man. They weren't able to apply custom and tradition or they were told that that didn't matter, I'm not sure, but that wasn't what was applied. It was the old code that the American government gave you, ‘You can't do this, can't do that,' and they would then have a sanction and they would sanction. Whereas before, perhaps they would sit all in a group if you were acting bad and say, ‘You were acting like this or you did this to my family and we're telling your family. If you keep doing it, we're going to beat you up or we're going to throw you in the canyon,' or whatever it might be and in front of everybody that person will be told what will happen if they continue acting in a way contrary to the norm, in a bad way. And that's kind of how things were decided. If there was an issue and it was too close for that particular band, they would ask perhaps a head man or a chief of the next band over or someone not actually related to come in and listen and help decide. We don't do that anymore. But there's no reason why we cannot bring that back. I would like to do that, but we're...but our system is so embodied or entrenched with that Anglo adversarial system, partly because other people who've come to our tribe, outsiders, Natives even come to our tribe, they promote that because that's what they know. People come with what they know. I would rather just [whirring sound] and go back and try to bring something better, but it's hard working for your own people, so I don't know if I'll ever do that but tribes can do that. If they are told...but like I also tell judges and tribal leaders, developing a government, developing a judicial system takes many lives. You're going to be like Moses, if you know who Moses is. You're not going to see the promised land, but you're going to contribute to it, put some seeds in there, and then hopefully someday you'll get there. That's how I look at it, just kind of move it in that direction, but I won't see the end."

Ian Record:

"Back to this issue of the federal Indian policy arena and...I want to ask you a question specifically about what's going on currently in the U.S. Supreme Court. And I was curious to get your opinion on how should Native nations view the current U.S. Supreme Court given its current composition, its recent cases with respect to Indian Country, and perhaps maybe some thoughts from you on what you would advise tribes to do in response to kind of strategize about how to approach the court given what's going on."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Cases probably shouldn't be brought there right now. I don't know. I have my own theory about certain things with Supreme Court Justice [Antonin] Scalia and his originalist thinking. To me, if that's...that's what he...you're supposed to go with what they said back then. Well, back then, they thought of tribes as nations. Then why do you keep stripping it away. He's hypocritical in my thinking. So the only strategy I can think of is if you'd go to court, argue with the Supreme Court, you'd play on him and you'd say somehow in an off way how hypocritical he is if he doesn't go back to the originalist thinking by thinking tribes are independent nations, how they thought of [them] back then, because when it comes to tribes, that's the only time he goes the other way, it seems to me. But other than that, I wouldn't go to that court, not with those justices, but that's the only thing I see there, unless I'm wrong. I've bought all these books on him and I'm reading them because it seems to me that's the only way with him. He talks this way and then he's going to be a hypocrite if you don't...a case comes to him and you push original thinking and he goes the other way. How could he do all these cases that way? It would be bad. But other than that, I don't know. I wouldn't want to tell anybody what to do, not now."

Ian Record:

"We've heard other people respond to that question, essentially echoing what you said, which is probably in tribes' best interest -- unless they have an unbelievably strong case -- is to not take a case up there. And absent that approach of taking cases to the Supreme Court, doesn't that behoove tribes...wouldn't it behoove tribes then to become innovative -- which we're seeing a lot tribes do -- becoming very innovative in terms of making sure that their rights are protected, advancing their rights in other ways, whether it's through MOUs with other jurisdictions, things... you've made allusion to this issue of concurrent jurisdictions working together on certain things rather than just butting heads."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, the one thing about nations is nations have to deal with the other nations and they have to talk and communicate and they have to make deals or they have to work together. Sometimes tribes don't want to deal with the next person or the jurisdiction next to them, don't want to share information, but being a sovereign, that's part of being a sovereign. To be a true sovereign, you work with some other sovereign, you don't stay away from them, you've got to work with them. So in order to be more powerful, you have to deal with that sovereign and you make agreements, you make laws that work with theirs, you make your own laws that...or you lobby their lawmakers to do things that help you. So there are a lot of things that tribes can do and are doing and are becoming a little bit more creative. And that's again like giving the horse, tribal people are going to be thinking about it not like these people, they're going to think about it and then maybe come up with some other way and they're going to be, ‘Ah, we've got this and we're going to do it like this.' So there's different ways to do it and not...taking something to the Supreme Court is on a specific issue and whatnot, but you want to not have those issues, you want to start dealing with them up front, you want to start working things out. Nation building, part of my model is confrontation, communication, compromise and concord. So you confront the issue, you communicate it, that means talk about it, you compromise, you give and take, and then you reach that peace, concord. So you would move in that direction and tribes need to start doing that before it becomes an issue that needs to go to nine people or five people in cases that will make a decision that will go totally maybe bad for everybody, not just them. It affects everyone, unless it's such a specific matter that it only pertains to them, but most of the time in federal law, it's a huge issue like the Carcieri one, those ones before 1934, they are...after they can't put land into trust. It affects those people, but it wouldn't affect us or certain tribes, but that kind of creates these tribes against these tribes. So you want to start...again, being a true sovereign is working with other sovereigns and dealing with them and communicating with them and making compromises with them. So we can't stay away from people, we have to do those things. But a lot of us are kind of hesitant, either because we don't know how to approach, we don't know how to deal, but over time we're learning that. One time I called the judge and he said, ‘I've never heard from a judge from Hualapai before.' I said, ‘Well, this is me and I want to know something,' and so we talked one time. So it's happening and it's just a matter of time when we get really, really good at it. But again, as Moses, we might not see that part, but I think it's doable."

Ian Record:

"In fact before I get to those last two questions, what you just mentioned recalls another question I wanted to ask you and that is this issue of transparency in jurisprudence is something you've alluded to, and I was wondering if you could speak directly to that issue and how important transparency is to having effective justice systems."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Transparency in how, what do you mean?"

Ian Record:

"Transparency in how the verdicts are rendered, transparency in the process."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, it has to be fair. When I think of the word transparency, it's like they know exactly...well, the process they should be aware of how it works, but sometimes like in certain cases they don't, they can't know everything that's presented, certain things. But the process should be open...sometimes they want to close a criminal matter, but by law we're supposed to be open case. So the process should be open, everybody should know how it works, and then it should be consistent. And that to me is how I see transparency. It's consistent, people know what's supposed to happen; it's not going to change. A lot of tribes, however, have problems when they don't have court rules because when you don't have court rules, and this happens actually a lot. A pro tem judge like myself will go somewhere and there are no rules and something comes up, previous judge did it differently and I do it differently. That happens a lot when a tribe doesn't have rules. But everybody knows that so that's not a problem. They're going, ‘Oh, it's a different judge, he's going to do it differently or she's going to do it differently.' But in general, people should know how the process is going to work generally, and then they should be aware of it and kind of see it go through and follow it to the end, to the decision making and not be secretive and the judge goes into the back with the prosecutor or something like that. It shouldn't be that way at all."

Ian Record:

"I want to ask you about a topic that the Native Nations Institute has been spending an increasing amount of time looking at and that's this issue of sovereign immunity, and we convened an executive forum a couple years ago with leaders from nations, experts, lawyers in this area that are working in this area. I was wondering, from your experience, if you can comment on the issue of sovereign immunity and specifically how it can be used as a tool to advance tribal sovereignty."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"It can advance and not advance. So let me start at what sovereign immunity comes from. Sovereign immunity is a doctrine that comes from Anglo Saxon, the 'king can do no wrong.' So we have to ask, ‘Do we have kings?' Native Hawaiians, today, maybe they do. Maybe they say, ‘The king can do no wrong,' that's applicable in their culture. In tribal systems, maybe they had a chief kind of like a king and maybe they believe, ‘The chief can do no wrong,' so if that's applicable, then that's cultural, they can apply it, cultural law. But in other places it's not like that. Some tribes believe chiefs can do wrong, people can come tell you. You meet together and say, ‘We don't like this.' So it may not be applicable, that concept, ‘The king can do no wrong,' or, ‘The chief can do no wrong.' What I see sometimes is lawyers, if a tribe does something perhaps to a non-member Native, for instance, they do something bad to him or they do something that is a volative, basically under the Indian Civil Rights Act or whatever it is. That person can't sue because of sovereign immunity. The lawyers are going to say right away, present the defense of sovereign immunity. Now if we want justice, that's not providing justice. That's helping the tribe because they can't be sued, but it's not helping generally justice because if a tribal council made a decision...because certainly in my mind tribal councils can do wrong, they can make bad decisions, and I have seen it. And it may not be because of just spite or meanness or whatever, it could be just lack of knowledge or they acted hastily at whatever it was or whatever it is. But they make bad decisions and it affects human lives or it affects somebody. Now if that person has no recourse...and my idea about what they can do isn't they can sue for all the money, that's not what I'm saying. And somebody misconstrued what I was saying one time. I'm not for that. It's more of an equitable relief. If a council makes a bad decision, a person should be able to take them to court or take them to the judicial system and say, ‘Hey, you violated due process or you violated something,' particularly if they have their own bill of rights, which a lot of tribes now are doing. And that decision then would be vacated and they'd be told, ‘You did wrong, do it again.' And if there's a little bit of something that person deserves if they like got $20 taken...whatever it is, parking ticket, something...they should give them that, but not a million dollars. It's not a...my idea of being able to sue tribal government is not for monetary damages. It's for equitable relief and just that fixing what you did wrong because like I said before, tribal council members could be young or naí¯ve or not knowing, not knowledgeable in certain things and make a collective decision that affects someone else and is a bad one and it hurts them. I don't believe that doctrine should always be thrown out and lawyers do that all the time. And they'll say...and they'll write...I've seen many motions, ‘First motion, motion to dismiss, tribe is immune from suit for sovereign immunity.' And I wrote a couple opinions...I just...’No, it doesn't work that way. We have a constitution at Hualapai. It says, ‘Every person has these rights. It's not member, it's not Hualapai; it's person.' So if you're a person and if I define person as a corporation or whatever, if this council did something wrong, that person has the ability to go to court and sue something in equity so just to make a better deci...or to redo the decision or vacate it and do something differently.' But not for money and I'm very firm on that and other people will say, ‘No, we have to have that because it supports economic development.' Well, to me, if you're going to keep making bad decisions and screwing people over like that, that's not good for business. People won't do business with you any more, they're going to know, ‘We won't go over there because they'll do something bad, go on a contract with you, breach it and you can't sue them.' That doesn't help no one. So I don't...I don't even know why tribes even say the term. They should be saying something in their own language, but not using 'King So and So's' words because those English kings back then were horrible people. They would cut your head off. I just don't know why we even want to be close to that. And maybe some of us did the same thing, I don't know."

Ian Record:

"It's interesting: you talked earlier in your answer about how the fact that they may invoke sovereign immunity and it helps the tribe in that case, but then you make allusion towards the end of your answer that in the long run, it doesn't help the tribe much at all because people get the message pretty quick that..."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yes. They won't do business with you."

Ian Record:

"Exactly."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"And they won't interact with you. They'll just say, ‘You don't get a fair shot at that place. They're just for themselves.' And they say that in certain places now. You can't...because it's always thrown out that way, ‘Well, we're immune from suit.' Even the businesses, even the corporations, even the casinos, first thing is immunity. They get insurance and they do all those things, they should be able to do all that stuff and protect themselves. And I'm just saying if they did something wrong, something bad. If it's not that, then..."

Ian Record:

"And what we're seeing is a lot of Native nations are using sovereign immunity as a tool as I mentioned pretty innovatively, and in fact when they do waive it in a contract with an outside vendor perhaps, they're waiving it into their own court system."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Yeah, they should do that first because that is their place. They may have to negotiate. Some people won't...they may do a clause, choice of law clause where it takes them to an arbitrator or takes them to something else, because if that person's just not going to do business with an Indian tribe, some tribes have to do that with these people. But the best thing is to bring...but they're going to look at that court system, they're going to look at, 'Who's the judge?' And I've even had someone say they did research on our court to see who the judge was...at me. So they'll do that before they agree, because they don't want to invest or put money into something where it's not going to be fair. And it's just so common-sensical. It's a good business practice. But I see too many right away, in my court, other courts, ‘Motion to dismiss, tribe is immune from suit.'"

Ian Record:

"Do you think some of that comes from a confusion among the people who call the shots in a particular nation that if you waive 'sovereign immunity' you're somehow waiving your 'sovereignty'?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, this goes back to acting like a sovereign, you have to work with other sovereigns, and waiving it or to do business with someone else, that's a part of it. That's being a sovereign. That's acting like a nation. So the tribal leaders, many times they confuse sovereignty with sovereign immunity. They're not the same thing. Sovereignty is the ability to be your own nation, you're one to yourself, you're your own country or whatever it is. Sovereign immunity is just saying, ‘Well, you can't sue me no matter what I do.' They're kind of related, but they're not the same thing. And some council members just make it the same -- if you waive sovereign immunity, you're waiving the sovereignty. But it's not like that and we need to educate them on the distinction between the two and maybe...I wrote an opinion one time in a case that...it was a trial court [case], but no one appealed it. I said, ‘Native people and at Hualapai have the concept of fair dealing and fair trade generally.' And you know, good trade, you see it on Dances with Wolves or whatever, I think that goes across all Indigenous people, it's kind of fair. You treat each other fairly in situations so that goes...that's a cultural concept that goes full with business. So you can't screw over these people, we have to be fair to them. And so that's why part of the basis why sovereign immunity in that case wasn't going to work and plus we had a constitution that says persons have rights, etc., etc. So those things together, the written and the cultural I put together and said, ‘No, we're not going to have that right now, not with this.' But then I said, ‘But it's not...' The person would not ever...we never got...it ended after that first hearing. But a person suing is not going to be able to sue a tribe for all its worth. I agree that tribes have to be protected from...we don't have any money. We didn't have any money, right. But it has to be in equity, it has to be just the fairness, the fairness that I believe is cultural to tribes. We've got to treat people fair and there has to be a mechanism in that court system or something, some...maybe it's an outside...maybe it's another branch of government, maybe it's a program, it's somewhere where they can go and say, ‘I was treated unfairly, I need a hearing and a review of this act,' and they need to have that. And if they're found to have done wrong or something, well, then redo it and make it fair. Equality and fairness I believe is a concept genuine to Native people, most people I think. I think it's a human thing really across the board. Some people just don't recall it and remember, they do it badly.' But the sovereign immunity by itself is something -- it's not tribal, it's not traditional, for most of us. Some tribes, I actually have heard them say, ‘No, we could never do nothing to the chief.' I heard them say that. Well, if that's true, then okay. They're being...they're applying their culture, but I don't see that in my tribe. I mean it's not what I've heard and read."

Ian Record:

"Wanted to end with a kind of nuts-and-bolts, everything-in-one question here, I guess a wrap-up question and that is...and this is kind of the topic we started with which is how can strong, independent justice systems serve as a tool for Native nations to meet the contemporary challenges of nation building and specifically how can Native nations or how do those justice systems empower Native nations to achieve their strategic priorities?"

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Well, the justice system again is a place where people go to resolve conflict and throughout all human existence and the rest of it, until we blow up, there's always going to be a problem, there's always going to be controversy, there's always going to be conflict. As much as there's going to be cooperation in the world, there's always going to be a conflict. They're balanced, they're one end of the spectrum, I mean one conflict...total cooperation-conflict, so it's going to be there. So a justice system is a place for the tribe where any disputes can go and be resolved. Now as...I go back to the people gather, ground and grow. They're going to gather, they're going to ground and grow and throughout this process there's always going to be those problems. A justice system or a place for dispute resolution, a good one or one that works from a 'good heart' kind of place, is going to contribute to that process, it's going to help them move forward in that community and nation building process. NNI and Harvard, they have the nation-building thing. I don't see it like that only. I see community and nation building. You have to have the people get along and we are related and we have links and relationships like the clanships and all that kind of thing. We're...that's the membership thing, we're members together. The citizenship thing or the nation-building thing is hierarchical. The community building is vertical or wait, no, which one's this way?"

Ian Record:

"Horizontal."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"Horizontal, the horizon, I always have to think of that. Community building is horizontal, this one, and nation building is vertical, this one, and so you have both. So that you have to...as the people gather, ground and grow, they're going to get along or not and they have a place to go, but as they build institutions and become more hierarchical and citizens and defining where you fit in the government, they're going to be like this, but that court system will help resolve problems as it moves forward. But it's never an end...it never ends, until we blow up like I say. That's how I...maybe someday it would happen. That process, the judicial system or whatever they're going to call it...people don't have to call it that, it's just we get that from Anglo words. It's going to help the people in their community- and nation-building journey in all aspects and if they have that there, then things will be a lot lighter, things will be easier, things will be consistent, things will be something where they will have faith in the ability to even do things, because if there's a problem, there's somewhere to go to resolve it. And so if all tribes had that, then their path to some end is going to be a better place or a better end...no end, but a better journey because they're going to keep moving in that direction. If they don't have that, they're always going to be hurting, they're always going to be fighting, they're always going to be not going in the direction that they should. Things won't be resolved, people get hurt, the feelings that...a lot of people don't in court systems want you to bring in your feelings, but you have emotion, human beings have emotion, so it's a part of that and I think tribal people are very emotional, we really hold on. So that will be affected. My paradigm, nation-building model also incorporates a spirituality of law model, which means, well, basically it's a healing thing. When law brings people together, it connects them, it builds ties and connections. A good justice system will identify how we're connected. Legislative people should write good law to tell us how we're related and how we get along, what our relationship is in whatever business or whatever. But when there's gaps, the court system can say, ‘This is the filler. This is how we should get along or not.' So when you build those kinds of connections, you are healing each other, so the spirituality of law in a court system is, the better the court system's able to identify how human beings are related and linked and are tied together, the more healing. When you are untied and disconnected, it causes sickness. Justice Yazzie says...used to say or he says still, ‘A criminal is one who acts like he has no relatives.' That means he doesn't act like he has any connections. So a criminal needs to be tied back to his family, to his tribe, to his people. So the court system should be able to do in ceremony or in process, in procedure, even if it's a trial, retie the lost links, which then would create healing, which is a good thing. If we don't, we leave them to be sick and lost and untied and disconnected and that's a bad thing. So that's how I see...that's how I see my work. That's what I try to do. But when we're doing it under the...in this adversarial system given to us, it's a very difficult task, but I still try to do that. That's how I see my role as a judge but not just as a judge, as a human being, as a community nation builder person, that's how I see that."

Ian Record:

"Well, Joe, I really appreciate your time. I thank you for your perspectives and your thoughts and yeah, thanks."

Joseph Flies-Away:

"You're welcome."

NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow: Frank Ettawageshik (Part 1)

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

Frank Ettawageshik, former chairman of the Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians (LTBBO), discusses how LTBBO has set a solid foundation upon which to engage in nation rebuilding through its development and ratification of a new constitution and governance system that is culturally appropriate and capable of effectively exercising LTBBO's sovereignty. He also stresses the need for Native nations to develop and institutionalize nation-specific civics education of their people in order to create civic-minded citizens who can contribute to their nation-rebuilding efforts.

Resource Type
Citation

Ettawageshik, Frank. "NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow (Part 1)." Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management, and Policy, University of Arizona. Tucson, Arizona. April 6, 2010. Interview.

Ian Record:

"Welcome to Leading Native Nations. I'm your host Ian Record. On today's program, I am honored to welcome Frank Ettawageshik. Frank is a citizen and the former chairman of the Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians. He currently serves as the Executive Director for the United Tribes of Michigan, and recently was chosen by the Native Nations Institute to serve as its 2010 Indigenous Leadership Fellow. Frank, welcome to the program."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Hi."

Ian Record:

"I'd like to start off by asking you a question I ask virtually everyone I sit down with, and that is: what is Native nation building and what does it entail for your nation?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, it has a lot of different parts to it. Some people think it's the constitution, some people think it's economic development. And those are components of it, clearly, and are very important, and maybe some of the more visible parts, but nation building to me is the, building the capacity of the citizenry of your nation to deal with change and to deal with the issues that come before it, and to do that in a healthy way. To me, you're building...a nation is wealthy, and it has true wealth as opposed to money. And, you know, economic development can bring you a lot of money, but it doesn't necessarily bring you true wealth. And the...you need wisdom to figure out how to take money from economic development, how to use a document that you've created if a constitution, how to actually have the institutions of your society, not just governmental institutions, but you know, institutions of your tribal society, of your nation, have them become strong. And that, to me that's what nation building is."

Ian Record:

"Dr. Stephen Cornell with the Native Nations Institute has framed nation building as in part the challenge of remaking a nation's governance tools. Do you agree with that statement, and why?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, I think it's important, but you have to...the tribal government is not the tribe. The government serves the tribe. And to the extent that you have...you need proper institutions. And those institutions may be governmental institutions, but they may be institutions of your society. And you need to have them be strong in order to truly do the nation building. So it, you know the implication of the question would be if you do constitutional reform, you got, you're all done. And...but to me, I think that it's a little deeper than that. And so clearly, an inadequate governing document can be a huge hindrance towards the development of good, of proper governance. I mean it can be a real problem, and needs, you do need to have a good constitution for your government. Now that constitution, in some cases it may not be written, and you know, but nevertheless, you need to have a system of governance that's in place that the society understands and that your tribal citizenry understands and is able to use and that they feel comfortable with. Otherwise you, you can impose a system that, that for instance is not, that may be a good idea somewhere, but may not be a good idea in your community. You can't do that. You have to have something that works."

Ian Record:

"Follow-up question to that: you've obviously been central in the nation building efforts of your own nation and have gained deep insights into what a number of other Native nations have been doing over the past 20, 30 years during the course of your career working in a number of different arenas -- how do you see this question of why some Native nations have proven more successful than others in achieving, not just their economic development goals, but their community development goals? These social institution-building efforts, if you will?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Part of that is a question of leadership. You need to have the, you need to have the right combination of people together. Some, there's what, the 'Great Man theory': Does history make the great man, or does the great man make history? And I've always been a proponent of the belief that history makes the great man, or the great person, or the great leader in this case as it may be. And that it's not, it's less the force of a single personality, and it's more the outgrowth of the culture. And that when people are at the point that they're ready to do certain things, those people who can accomplish those will become apparent within their communities. And our peoples have suffered immensely. For over 500 years, our wealth has been gradually transmitted away from us, our wealth, not just monetary wealth, but the wealth of our resources, the access to our resources. Even if they're there, we sometimes, the game warden stops us from hunting so that we, for the food that we always hunted. And we have, that this loss, gradually, over the years, has been very difficult for us. We've maintained our elements of culture and items through that. But our, many of our institutions within our tribal societies have suffered at that over the years because of a lot of, just the loss of many people, say through the small pox epidemics and the measles and all the other things. We lost a huge amount of institutional knowledge within our tribal societies. And that that...that made it more difficult for us to grow –- we were in survival mode and we had to try to figure out how to pull things together to survive.

So, different communities and different tribal communities, different tribal nations are at different points in their recovery, because we are recovering. This is the first generation, or maybe the second, in our history that actually has more rather than less in most cases. In fact, in my life I've seen our tribal nation go, really this is the first generation that has had more rather than less when it comes to access to resources. When it comes to this, the community support for strengthening cultural society, strengthening cultural teaching, that we actually have more rather than less now. And that's an unusual situation for us. So in the cases of, in the case of money, we have, there's money from a casino, we have to figure out how to deal with that. How do we deal with money, how do we deal with the problems that come from a market place that moves up and down and back and forth? And how do we deal with that? Whereas before we were always on the low end of everything, we were broke. And so if the market fluctuated, we already were at the bottom, and you know, it didn't really take us much further down. But today, we actually have made advances, and so we can suffer through changes in the national economy for instance. So these are things that are, that you know that I think about that in trying to understand and learn as we look towards the future."

Ian Record:

"Dr. Cornell also...in a related question, Dr. Cornell refers to governing systems as fundamentally tools for creating the future that Native Nations want -- essentially a vehicle for strategic planning and implementation. Is that something you agree with, is that something that you've envisioned your government doing as part of its role, fundamental role?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, the government clearly has a role for these things. You know, we have a planning department, for instance. And the planning department was really the first independent department that we created that was, that became out of the, when we started doing a modern administrative government as opposed to our traditional government. This was a, and it was important because there's financial planning and we had to learn how to do budget projections and running grants and all the other things. We also had, we had to deal with phone systems and how do you, how do you get it, deal with an expanding phone system from one to two to three to five to twenty-five to fifty to one hundred. You know, how do you deal with all of those systems. So we've had to learn to do all of that as we've had expanded offices, and as we've had expanded resources to run those offices. You know, we had an archives and records department that we had to create within the government because it was no longer possible to store our records in boxes under people's beds and in the hall closet in people's homes. We now started having fairly large collections of data that needed to be stored and taken care of. And then you have financial record keeping data that has to be stored for a long time. So we, these are kind of things we had to, you know, to figure. So yes, to those extent, we do have to, you know, you do have to have these institutions. But at the same time we have to be careful to not expect that our tribal governments do everything for people. That, that there's a, as I said the government serves the tribe, but the government isn't the tribe. And that's a very difficult thing because they, literally, the tribal citizens often actually ask us to do things that, it would probably be better if we didn't. And you know, there's a number of different things that I, that I think about in that regard that are, that I think sort of... One of them I guess I'll talk about is buying the meat for the feast, for instance.

Once we started having some money, people felt that we needed to provide the money to buy the meat for the traditional feast that we were having. And I felt that we'd had these forever, and that we should try to continue to have them in that same way. The government didn't necessarily need to be involved in that to make those things work. But we started providing the funds. And this gradually turned into providing the money to actually cater the entire feast. And we ended up having this where instead of having the women come and help cook and do a lot of the work, we had, you know, the casinos they have from...the catering folks came in and they just took care of everything. And we'd had this, and we were in a northern climate, and then we had a snow day, and very, we ended up having ten people come to this feast and a lot of people got really upset thinking, 'Well, nobody wants their traditions anymore. Nobody wants to attend the feast, nobody wants to do this and...' So it almost died because government, and for me it died I felt because government had gotten involved and started to, you know, question the date that it was held, and start to wonder who could come, and who might not, and started providing the money for this whole thing, as opposed to doing it the way that we had always done it.

So the next year when it came time to do the feast, we -- in a very long meeting at our elders lunch with the, we had just the week before the feast -- we discussed whether we, the people were right that nobody wanted to come to the feast and that we should just do away with it, or what should we do. Well then this long discussion got turned back into a potluck and got turned into everybody was coming and we had the biggest group that had been at this feast in 25 years. And that continues to this day being run that way, where we, everybody pitches in and works together on it. And it's the way it should have been. Well, that's to me a shining example of what government shouldn't do, and then what government should do. They should stay out of it. Government, in this case, got the grants, provided the funds, and built the facility in which we hold the feast. So it's a government hall that the community can use, and then the community comes in and uses it. And not only uses it for this event, but uses it for all types of other events: birthday parties, and for funerals, for state dinners, for all different kinds of things that are used in this facility. But most of the things that happen there are not government functions. Most of things are functions of the community as a whole."

Ian Record:

"So essentially what you're saying is that it's government's role to empower community and not necessarily replace community."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Yeah. I think that's a good summation of it. And to me this is, we have to really be careful of this. When we look at what we're asked to do as a government, and also what we choose to do. And those things are, and they have to be thought through, you know. This long-term thinking about the implications of what we do have to be thought through."

Ian Record:

"Isn't part of that just the struggle with managing growth? What you're seeing, particularly with the advent of gaming, so many tribes, the amount of resources that they're receiving and then having to figure out what do we do with this? It just grows, has grown astronomically over the past 15-20 years, and it's kind of, it's been a challenge for some tribes to kinda take a step back and consider these very issues that you're talking about."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, the communities have a lot issues. But there are people who are quite critical of how tribes do some of these things and look at them. But I actually think that, you know, we need to look at it like this: we really figured out well how to be poor. We got that figured out really good. We know how to take a chicken and feed 30 people with it, you know. We can, we can figure out things. We got being poor figured out. But when we have money, we have to figure out how to do that. Lots of people with lots of money have a real hard time. Lot of old money families have all kinds of different issues. They're different issues than the ones of not having money. Well, as tribal citizens, tribal communities, having money is something that we have to figure out how to work with, and it's going to take a generation or two or three of four to try to work through those issues. How do we deal with not being the poorest ones on the block? How do we deal with, with not, with actually having resources that we need to allocate as opposed to just barely surviving? And those are different kinds of, different kinds of roles. So it's a natural, it's a natural issue. People who win lotteries --there's been studies done about the people who win lotteries. And most of them, after, oh say ten years, are probably worse off than they were before they won. Every now and then there's an exception, but because they don't know how to deal with the issues of having, of having money, and having access to resources. I look at it -- once again it's like I said earlier -- it's like having money versus having, taking that money and turning it into true wealth. And that's were you need to have, you need to put a lot of you effort into training people how to deal with that."

Ian Record:

"So let's talk a little bit more about that. How would you define true wealth?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"A safe, peaceful community. Where you have, you know, you have adequate education, you've got healthy people, you have adequate resources. And you can perpetuate and grow your culture. Not just talk about the way things used to be, but actually adapt and grow to the changing times and have your culture be alive, not just static, something that's in a book or something that's been studied and that...you know, so it's...to me true wealth is this. And true wealth sometimes involves having money, resources, and doing things with them. But true wealth can also be merely just good schools and safe homes and jobs. But that's, that's being wealthy, being, having a strong sense of self-worth, a good strong sense of place, not just in, in the physical place, but a place in culture, a place in history, a place in the preservation and continuation of culture and your environment."

Ian Record:

"I'd like to switch gears and turn to a topic that you're well versed in, and that is constitutions. Back in 2005, the Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians adopted a new constitution, and I was curious to learn more about what necessitated your nation to undertake that major step, and I guess give us an overview of what that involved."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, in our case, we were not on the list of federally acknowledged tribes. We felt we always had been acknowledged, but we felt that the government had somehow forgotten that; that they had neglected to keep us on the list. And so we spent 120 years in a legal battle with the United States government over this issue. And when Richard Smith went down with his ship in a storm in Saginaw Bay in 1871 in Lake Huron, he took with him the institutional memory as being the scribe at the treaty negotiations, the Treaty of 1855, Treaty of Detroit of 1855 that covered a substantial portion of the lower peninsula of Michigan, and a substantial piece of the upper peninsula of Michigan as well, in which today there are five federally recognized tribes, and a couple of others that are working toward federal recognition. And we had to fight with the U.S. Congress, with the executive branch, within the courts for all of that time. We had people who were involved in lawsuits, people traveling to Washington, all laying the groundwork for eventually us being successful in the passage of Public Law 103-324, the Reaffirmation Act for Little Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians and the Little River Band of Ottawa Indians, both in Michigan. And this bill was signed on September 21, 1994.

There had been numerous legislative attempts over the years on things that would have affirmed our status in one way or another. There were a number of different things that happened, and there's a huge long history just behind that treaty, and behind the ramifications of it. But we spent this time working for this bill, which reaffirmed our status -- it didn't grant recognition to us, and it didn't restore recognition to us. It reaffirmed that we'd always had it, which I think is an extremely important, subtle difference. And in that bill it made sure that we be on the list of federally recognized tribes, so we'd be added to that, to the List Act, you know. And then we also were...it called for the development of a tribal role, and there was a certain timetable for that. It called for the development of a tribal constitution that, the one we subsequently developed. But it also recognized as an interim document, the constitution that we were operating under at that time that was our interim constitution, and then we were going to, we had to move forward with a new constitution.

Fortunately for us in this process, we had seen, we could learn from the issues of many neighboring tribes, and other tribes across the country, in the documents they'd had. We had very early on -- when we were trying to figure out how to work on our issues -- we had a grant from the Administration for Native Americans, and in that grant we wanted, we were gonna put on a conference, you know, a meeting for the tribe to discuss constitutions, to discuss the issues of federal acknowledgement. And we -- our attorney and I -- we were talking on the phone, and we wanted the Vine Deloria book, The Nations Within, we were discussing that book and we said, 'Well we need somebody that can really talk about that book, and talk about the issues in it. That's really what we need in the community to help move us along.' And finally one of the other of us, and I don't, never have remembered which one of us said, 'Well, why don't we just invite Vine?' And so we subsequently did invite Vine who came to our, came to the community and he -- along with a number of other people -- through the day gave discussion about constitutions and issues and laid the groundwork for helping us understand the issue of constitutions, and really what was wrong with a lot of the, what's called the boilerplate IRA constitutions that are out there, which, by the way, was pretty much what we were operating under is our interim constitution, was patterned after one of the boilerplate IRA constitutions; all of the powers in the council, and the council creates the court by passing a law, the executive and the legislative are all embodied within one institution, the tribal council. And as long as you have good people in a system like that, it works. But there are no checks and balances really. If the, if somebody, if a tribal member sues the government for something and wins in tribal court, the council can abolish the law that created the court, fire the judge, and then pass a new one and get a new judge and just keep doing that over and over until they get one that finally rules their way. That could happen, and actually things like that have occurred various places around Indian Country -– judges have been fired. So you really need a robust dispute resolution process, or a strong independent tribal court. One, and that's an important part of this. Well we discussed these things with, when Vine was there, and helped us start the process of thinking about this. And at the same time, this was prior to the passage of our reaffirmation act, Vine agreed to testify and came and gave the lead testimony for, at our hearing for, what became Public Law 103-324, when we went to the U.S. House for our first hearing on the bill.

So we had, we created a constitution committee, we worked through the grant, we prepared a draft, an initial draft that was looking at our, sort of looking at us from a theoretical point of view. This is what we'd like to see, as opposed to this is what we actually are. And then we had a committee that worked for number of years putting a draft together. Our constitutional process involved -- the development of the constitution involved -- having a committee that worked on drafts, studying constitutions from other tribes all over the country –- the good ones, the bad ones, the long ones, the short ones, the...and trying to learn from the experience of other people, as well as try to find something that fit our makeup, and our community. So we then did a public hearing, a meeting in all, not just in Northern Michigan right where our people are, but we also have a lot of people who live in the cities who would move there for jobs down in the southern part of the state. So we had meetings not only there, but also in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. We had a total of eight meetings where the, sometimes we had as few as five people show up, sometimes as many as sixty would show up to these meetings where...and we wrote a transcript of the meetings, and talked about things like: if you're gonna be a judge, can you ever, can you have a felony in your record? Is there a length of time that you could go where we could consider that you might be rehabilitated? OK, if you've lived in the community, if you had a felony when you're 18, and you serve your time, and you're out and then 25 years later when you're, you know, in your 60's and you're being considered after living an exemplary life, would you be eligible to be a judge? Would you be eligible to be on the council, or to be the chairman, or...and we discussed these things with the community, and came up with, for most instances that they would be, there's the ability to be forgiven, and, not in every instance, but in most. And then we talked about what age people would have to be and what the basic criteria would be. We talked about all these things throughout the community in these discussions. And then a draft was prepared. That draft was then sent to all of the membership, one to every member. And then we then asked for written comments. We also had a meeting where you could come and give your, you could bring your written comments, you could mail them in, you could come to the meeting, and you could talk and discuss the things, ask questions, and we had it in an auditorium and had a fairly large turnout for this meeting. Then we took those, the committee took all those comments, and all those thoughts and everything, and took them back and made changes and thought it through and came up with a new draft, which we mailed out to everybody, and then did this whole process again. And we mailed, I think three times, the draft out for comments and had meetings where we put everything together. This took years; this was not something that was a matter of months. This took years to do this. And we finally ended up with a draft that was ready to be submitted to the, that was ready to be submitted to the Department of Interior.

Now the bill that we had, the Public Law 103-324, the Reaffirmation Act, it...when it called for an election for a constitution, it called for a secretarial election. So the fact that there's a secretarial election is really the only tie to this constitution as an IRA constitution, 'cause they required approval. So this was an IRA constitution only to the extent that it was required that that secretarial election. Because it really was not...this constitution that was developed was a separation of powers constitution, far from those boilerplate IRA constitutions. And it has a checks and balances within the different departments, within the different branches of government. And in addition to those checks and balances, there's also an independent prosecutor's office that, to help ensure this. And then there's also, not a branch of government, but a constitutional entity, the election board is also an independent body. And so these were the kinds of checks and balances that we built into this document.

Eventually we -- after considerable negotiation with the Bureau [of Indian Affairs] -- of course we, when we submitted it it was for an informal review. So we get this informal review and it took a long time. They're supposed to, there's timetables built into this stuff, but nobody ever meets those, the feds don't and, you know, the tribe, we didn't either, and so it took a long time to get this process. But eventually we got through that and negotiated through their informal review and then we got a formal document. Then we sent it in for the formal review and then we had to argue about certain points in the constitution about membership and territory and things that we had to sort of go through and deal with. And eventually we got the Assistant Secretary of the Interior to sign off saying that we were ready for a secretarial election – this was in the fall of 2004. And so the Bureau then started out to do the secretarial election, creating an election board that was our election board plus a couple members from the bureau. And they did a registration for that and then from the registered voters who registered for that election, it was about a three-quarters vote in favor of the constitution, which was...the election was certified on February 1, 2005. One of the key points to this, so that was a process of getting that constitution. It was a very long involved process, involving the community..."

Ian Record:

"A very organic process from what you're describing."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"...Yes. The next thing though, there's another important part of this constitution that I think was critical to its success, and I don't want to leave this out in terms of this point, but we...when people do constitutional reform, often the new constitution just goes into effect on that, on a particular day. Well, we were going from the old, pretty much a boilerplate, IRA-type tribal council, all authority being there, to one of different branches of government. And the people elected under an old constitution couldn't serve under this new one adequately, you know, it'd be really confusing. So when we adopted the new constitution, one of the provisions in it, was that it would not go into effect until the people were elected and sworn in to serve who would be implementing the new constitution. So it was September 21th, I mean, it took from February, it took months to have the election, to go through the process, and have people sworn in who then took office, and the new constitution went into effect. And that was a really important thing.

The other thing we did that helped with the transition that I think is...would be helpful to people is that we hired a couple of consultants to come in who had studied constitutions and had worked with tribes. We brought them, we gave them our document, and they had not been part of the drafting of the document, but we gave them our document and we said, 'We don't want to know what's wrong with this. Don't give us a detailed analysis of what's wrong with this. What we want you to do is to help us understand how to implement it. What are the things that we're gonna have to know when it comes to implementing this?' And then we hired them to come and work with the council, the newly elected council. And the day before we were all sworn in, they came in and did this training with the tribal council and with the executive offices, with all of the judges who would be carrying over, the process and...to go through this...and key members of commissions and key staff. So we had a training session on what the constitution meant. What it meant to be on a separation of powers, who was supposed to do what, how you appropriated money for instance, you do, you appropriated money through a process where you authorized the expenditure, then you appropriated the money and then you had to approve the, a budget modification where you put the money. And so those were things that we learned for instance from this, is way to keep adequate track of finances and dealing with that. And, so we went through this and we actually had a fairly smooth transition and went into this process.

So we went six months without...I attended every meeting as the, I was the chief executive elected under that first constitution. I attended every meeting for six months, all of the council meetings. They started to get a little restive about that because I'm a chief executive and I'm not really part of the council, so well, maybe they didn't really want me there. But they really wanted the chief financial officer, the CFO, and they really wanted the tribal attorney. But both of them worked for the executive now, and they, I told them, 'You can't have the CFO and the tribal attorney if you don't have me.' And they really didn't want me, so then they finally agreed, 'Okay, well then we won't have any of the people there, you know, you'll come in periodically.' And so we did, we had a table in the back where we'd come in and visit the meetings and answer questions when they had them and give them information, but we didn't attend every meeting. Well as soon as I wasn't attending every meeting, they started taking actions that didn't have input from the executive, and therefore within three weeks we had our first veto. So you know, things got interesting and we sort of worked that through where the executive exercises his prerogative with veto or with signing a bill, or letting it happen without signature. Those are all provisions of the constitution we put in.

So this is stuff that we did in the transition. And I mention one other thing about constitutions in here I think is important, and that is that a lot of people said, 'Well gee, you know, the separation of powers looks a lot like the U.S. constitution, why are we copying them? You know, we don't need to just copy them, you know we need to do our own thing, you know.' And, you know, I think of a story and I, about a project, a gift that my son gave me that he, he provided this, he went to camp, you know I think he was eight, and he made this thing, and I got it and it, it was wood burned on it, you know, and it said 'To the second greatest dad in the world.' And I went, 'Well gee, what is this? You know?' And he looked at it and he said, 'Well, but dad, you know, this other guy he said, "˜To the best dad in the world' and I couldn't copy him.' So I get a real kick out of that one. But the point is, is that, you know, we need to be careful. If something's good, just because somebody else uses it doesn't mean we shouldn't use it, particularly when they copied us when they prepared these checks and balances within the constitution of the United States. And they were, they took advice from tribes and they, they lived here on this continent and many ideas in there are native to this continent, they grew out of it. Even to the rules, the decorum in Congress and the way things are done. Many of those things came from the observation of tribal councils, of council meetings and different things. And so, you know, we've made a major contribution to the way the U.S. government functions. And if there's something that works, we shouldn't be, shouldn't say, 'Oh well, we can't do it cause they're doing it.' We need to say, 'Does it work and does it fit us?' And if it does, then we, we should be, not feel bad at all about taking that to use and using it to our own benefit."

Ian Record:

"Well yeah, it gets to the point of it, just because they copied us doesn't mean they own it."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Yes."

Ian Record:

"You know, they're the only one that can use it."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Yes. And that's...and so those are important things that we need to, that we need to think about when it comes to this. And so the constitution that we developed, that we put in place, I served four years as the first chief executive under that. I left office last August now -- in 2009 -- and it was, you know we're in, so now we're into a new administration and was, as with anything there's gonna be pushes and pulls. There's constantly, there's a, always a tension. With checks and balances, part of what that is is a certain tension between the different departments. And that's really sort of designed that way. And if there's a little bit of tension it's not a bad thing. But you, you know the executive authority for instance, the council, is really nervous about not exerting executive authority often, and really a lot of what they'd like to do is executive, and like the U.S. Congress tries to assert legislative authority, I mean executive authority and there's constant pull between the executive and the legislative, and that same thing is true within this kind of a document. You're gonna have that, and you're gonna have a court that will have to decide if one thing, if you've gone too far or not. But it's really important and what's...

The other thing that's important about a separation of powers constitution for me is that it's cumbersome, it's slower. And because it's slower it gives time for people to watch what's happening, to think about it, and the tribal citizenry can get involved. And if they don't like it they can let you know. You want something that takes, something has to be posted for 30 days before you can act on it for instance. You need things like that in there to give people time. Even if very few of them actually take the time, they need to know that they can, and they need to -- for those people that are interested -- they need to have that opportunity to do that in order to feel comfortable that the government actually is doing what they like and is a reflection of the community. When things can happen overnight without any notice at all, it's bad. And the other thing is you have to be able to notify people what's happened. People need to understand what the law is. A council can sit around passing laws all the time, but if you've got several thousand members, and they can't all attend the meetings, and if they have no way of knowing what the law is, you can't very well pass a law and then go out and arrest somebody for not following the law, unless they've had an opportunity to be involved in that, to understand what it is, unless they truly consent to that.

So if a law gets passed that they don't like, you need a mechanism within that constitution for them to remove it, for them to take it to a referendum. And if you have an inactive government that is not doing what the people like, you need the ability to have initiative, so that they can initiate laws through action that's outside of the council and the chair if they feel that they need to. And so these are kinds of things that, that give people the peace of mind that the government isn't totally out of control, and it's something that they can have access to, and that truly the government serves the people as opposed to the government being the people."

Ian Record:

"I want to follow up on a couple of points you raised during your description of the reform process, or not the reform process, actually the development process involved with the new constitution at Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians, and that is this issue of separations of powers. And you described very early on that separation doesn't necessarily mean non-communication between legislative and the executive branches of government, or the executive and legislative functions of government, that you need to have that communication so that each side is making informed decisions, and that separation doesn't necessarily mean there's no interaction between the two."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Yeah. Yeah that's...you have to have a method for communication, and you need to...I think that it's, one of the things that I advocate for is when there is a law that's going to be held, that's going to be, that's being considered, that the legislative body hold a hearing on it and call in the executive to be witnesses at that hearing to ask questions about how something is working, ask questions about how this new law would work if it were passed, get opinions about whether they think it would work. Because if...it's one thing to out of, out of the air to sort of create a law that you think works, but when you, if it's, when it's implemented through the executive side, you can't have something that won't work that is, you know, you can, you can't sort of force something to work, you need to know if there's some likelihood that it's going to work. And so you may not, you may have executive function, executive people who don't like the law because it may be going to do away with their job, or it may be you're going to create more work for them, or it maybe going to make them do something that they don't like. But that's not enough reason to not pass the law. But if you pass a law that has one part of government doing one thing, and the other part of government undoing it, you need to understand that, you need to know what the implications are from how things are going to work. And so it's a good idea to have public hearings, to have this debate, and to have a longer debate over the legislation so that you have an idea how it's going to function. And plus things take a while to implement.

An example of this: we passed a notary public law, and this particular law was one that took...we built an implementation period into the law and there was a lot of communication back and forth between the executive and the...you know we gave a markup back to the legislature to look at, to think about it, and we went through the different things that would be necessary to consider. And we thought a six-month time period to implement it would be fine. So we set out, once it was passed, to get the surety bonds for notaries, and were assured that that wasn't going to be no problem, a couple of different companies told us there'd be no problem, they did that regularly. And then we had to get embossers and stamps. Well this was a tribal notary law, so when we went to get the companies to do it they said, "˜Yeah, we'll do that send us your stuff.' And we sent the stuff and they said, 'Oh, wait a second, you know, where's your state stuff?' And we said, "˜Well, this is not a state, it's the tribe.' Oh we can't do that. And one after the other, they were falling by the wayside, saying, "˜You know, they couldn't do it.' So we had to actually find a company that...and we found one eventually who said, well see this is a tribal law and this is, you know, we showed them, we talked about the constitutional issues and all this, and they, and they understood, they finally got around to understanding it. So eventually they agreed to pay us $50 for us to license them in order to produce our stamps and embossers. And part of the thing was is they realized, they said, 'Now how many tribes are there?' We said, "˜There's over 500.' They said, "˜Oh, maybe we could do this.' And so we have one company who agreed to do this. We think we're the first tribe in the country to actually have our own notary public law this way, because we couldn't find anybody who would produce the stamps and embossers until we worked with them. Then when we went to get the surety bonds for the notaries, the companies who assured us they could do it suddenly realized they couldn't do it because all of their stuff was for state authorized notaries and they had, they just couldn't figure out how to deal with it. We finally found a company who...it took months. We had to get a six-month extension on our six months to implement the law because this took so long and we finally found a company who, an executive there had just returned from a seminar on insurance and one on dealing with tribal sovereignty issues. And he was really intrigued, and he came back the next day and got this call from us and he said, "˜You know, let's try this.' And so he set out to develop a special form, and all the different things.

So we have, we developed a product, which we think is unique in the insuring for tribal notaries. And there's now ten notaries licensed at Little Traverse, within our tribal jurisdiction, for notarizing documents. The average person needs a notary once or twice in their life. This isn't a big, sexy thing for tribal sovereignty. It's not something you're going to get headlined on a paper and all these other kinds of things, this isn't it, but exercising sovereignty is not just those big things. Exercising sovereignty is all the grunt work. You know it took years to develop the statute to get the council in the right mind to think it would be something that needed to be passed. And then it took some of the tribe people in tribal community said, "˜You're doing what? You know, why would we need to do that?' And you know, but we eventually got people around to the idea that it was as good idea. It's an exercise of sovereignty and it's part of good governance for us to be doing these things. So this took a lot of communication back and forth between the legislature and the executive. And it's an example of a law that worked, and we -- not only did we do this -- but we also notified the governor's office of the state, said we're doing this, and her attorney, and we talked through all of that. You know we have regular meetings with the executive office of the state, annual meetings in Michigan, and we, because we were, we did these things, we didn't surprise anybody with what we were doing, and now that's the way we function, now we got this going. But that, that one law is an example of the utilization of the provisions within the constitution for the passage of a law, and the implementation of it, and how it worked. And I think it's a good example of good communication and, you know, making things, doing some of that grunt work and the assertion of sovereignty."

Ian Record:

"Really what you're talking about, on one level, is education: education of internal to the government then also education of the citizenry. And I wanted to follow up on that point. You know, we've seen...NNI works with a number of Native nations on the issue of constitutional development, constitutional reform, and we often see tribes either fail during the constitutional reform process, never make reform happen, or they encounter a lot of problems after they've ratified a new constitution, or reformed one because of this issue of education. Doesn't the education challenge only begin with the new constitution? Isn't there an ongoing education process that has to take place? Because, you know, it's one thing to change a document on paper, it's another thing to change the political culture, which has been at work in the community often for 60, 70, 80 years.

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well...there's, you know, we evolve as a society. One of the things I can think of is, when I was young, if someone was drunk, the police officer often would say, "˜Give me your keys. Get in the car.' And he'd drive them home, and leave the car sitting beside the road. And, you know, that was something that was fairly common. Today, that's far from the way things happen, you know. I mean today, we as a society, we have ceased to sort of look the other way at that issue, and have really focused on it as a negative thing within our society, and all the ramifications of driving and drinking. I have, you know, we're doing major educational campaigns on TV, we do this all across the country. And, so as a, the United States as a nation has really, the culture has changed as to how we deal with that. Well, the same thing happens when we're looking at how we deal with our institutions within our government structure, you know. The question that I have is, for people, is how often have they attended a township board meeting, or a county commission meeting, or a city commission meeting, or the state legislature, or the U.S. Congress. The average citizen, there are many, many citizens who never attend any of those meetings, ever. Live their lives and do just fine, they're fine, productive members of society and very successful and whatever, and they've never attended any of those. And yet, when we look at our tribal governments, we often, you know we get so wrapped up in our tribal governments that we start to try to make them into everything. Once again as I say, "˜Not the tribe, the government being the tribe, not the government serving the tribe.' And so citizens of our tribal nations often demand of their elected officials things that they wouldn't demand of elected officials that, from other places that they live, other communities that they interact with. And they, in so doing the, we get very little education about how to function.

What education and the way government works in our schools, usually, is all based on non-Indian governments. I was involved in a project for a textbook printed for the state of Michigan, or I was one of the people interviewed and part of the development of this for fourth grade. And this was the best textbook that we'd ever had up to this point because, and it's a major publisher and it was put together in a way that a number of schools throughout the state are using it now, it's titled "˜Michigan.' But what it did is it, Indians didn't disappear after the first paragraph, or the first chapter like we often do in books on history of the state. But we made it to about the middle of the book in the first edition. Second edition is about to come out and my understanding is we make it clear through the end of the book in this one. But people actually are going to understand when...kids will hear that we have constitutional governments. They'll hear that tribal governments exist today, instead of the question...I used to do a lot of speaking to fourth-grade classes and different places around the state of Michigan. One person said, "˜How long have you been an Indian?', question like that, and uh, 'What do Indians eat and where do you eat it?', and things of this sort. Of course they, there's certain stereotypical answers to those questions that they'd like answers to, but...it's because we need to address those issues, and so that as people become adults they understand that tribal governments are governments. We're not clubs, we're not associations, we're not part of history and long gone -- we actually exist and are around and have a major effect. We are, have far more visibility in the economic world because of the casinos and employing a lot of people these days. But far more than that, we have an effect on the way the environment, environmental issues are dealt with. We have an effect on law enforcement, we have an effect on the various social programs and things that are going on. Tribes have a major effect within their communities for both their citizens and for the non-tribal citizens as well.

And so today, things are much different than they once were, but we're still suffering from this lack of education about who we are. I once got the door-knocker award, which was literally a brass doorknocker still in its package from the Midwest Alliance of Sovereign Tribes for, we have an impact week every year in Washington D.C., and I went to that meeting and we would hold a breakfast where we'd talk and we go out on [Capitol] Hill and do meetings on the Hill, then we'd come back and we'd talk about what we'd done and, the sort of a summary of what we'd done and what things we need to do. I got the award because I'd taken a copy of the U.S. constitution. I had a lot of meetings. I was very energetic. And I took a copy of the U.S. constitution and I went in and I talked to the staff in all the offices I went to and I asked them if they'd ever read the Commerce Clause. Did they understand what, about treaties? It's sort of like 'Indian 101' in a way, the basics of Indian law relative to the constitution. And a huge number of the staff, a college-educated staff in the U.S. Congress, did not, had never read the Commerce Clause, with the idea of looking at tribal sovereignty through it. They didn't understand what it meant. They didn't, they never looked at the thing about treaties being the supreme law of the land, and understanding that meant Indian treaties. Never understood those things. And so this kind of education at that point is necessary. So what do we need in order to make our tribes work? Our own citizens are a product of this same sort of general education system that doesn't teach much about Indian law, Indian societies. And if nothing we're sort of curiosities and different things. Very little is that taught. So not only do our own citizens, as a product of this other education system, but they also need to understand their own government. They need to understand their own constitution. Nowhere are those classes taught. You know, they don't have a, you can't go and just take a class on the tribal constitution, and very few tribes have anything like this. So I've read, and I know other people who have advocated for tribal civics classes. We need to try to make sure that this is done.

One of the things that I feel that helps with this is I proposed a educational standards act for the tribe that would lay out what some basic goals were for different levels of say, elementary education, secondary, post-secondary, adult, you know, adult continuing education. What kind of things should we expect from each of these different age groups, and what...once we set some goals, then how do we achieve those goals? And one of the things that we did at Little Traverse that was done by, funded through the tribal council, but done by a number of different members of the community, is we created a video called "˜Journey to Sovereignty' that talks about the process of getting a reaffirmation bill passed and goes back into time, back into the history of why it became necessary to do it in the first place, and then how we went about doing it, and interviews with people. And it sort of told the story while the people were alive and we've got a record of it. And then we made a copy of that and mailed it to every tribal member, whether they were one month old or eighty, whatever, everybody got one. And then we continually show that at our hotel. We have the Odawa Channel at our hotel, and we show that video, a 'Four Directions' video. We have anther video on the history of the operation and some of the tribe. And we just have these showing in continuous loops so that, as a way to educate those people who are our guests who come to visit the tribe, but also for our own citizens who spend time there. And we periodically show these at other events just as a way to help people understand some of the history. Well it's things like that video, and other types that will be the tools that we need to actually get an educated citizenry about our systems.

So how does our system work? This is a long answer to your question, and I'm eventually getting back to your question here, that we need to have a mechanism for having an educated citizenry so that when we make changes in our governments, they understand what they're doing, they understand, you know, what this is likely to be. Once we made changes, as we implement them, they'll understand what those are. So we need education. It's like bringing in the consultants and helping educate the people who are about to serve under the new constitution. That seminar, that one-day training we had really helped move us through the transition. Now there will be, you know, we since have had others where we've brought people back in and looked at it again. And I'm sure that there will be continual training as we look at the documents and try to help them, and then look at our laws and see what laws we need to pass. We've had similar training when it came to dealing with the issues of Violence Against Women [Act, VAWA], and the personal protection orders and safety, issues of...we needed a victims rights act, we needed a, to strengthen a bunch of different laws. And we had a training where we brought in and talked about what we needed to do to work on this. We've had other trainings when it came to the implementation of, for instance the Adam Walsh Act, which by the way I just heard just recently that there are only three governmental entities that are compliant with the act, and it's overdue: one state and two tribes that have become compliant in the implementations of this federal law in the protection of children. But we're continually trying to do this through education. But as a basic form of this, we need to have this civics education. Each tribal nation needs to have a nation-specific course in how this is taught. We need to have general ones that help educate larger groups of people. We need to make sure like...I think there ought to be one of these in every law school. Every law school ought to have a class on dealing with sovereignty issues and dealing with tribes. Because many of those attorneys are going to end up serving before a tribal court somewhere, having to actually not just be a member of the power of Michigan, in the state of Michigan or in another state, but they're going to have to become members of the bar of different tribes in order to serve before those courts. And they need to understand what that means. So, you know, there's a need for an educated citizenry as a whole, and I think that this kind of training and education needs to not just be at the tribal level for our citizens, but also needs to be in the general public education as well."

Ian Record:

"If you could summarize for us, perhaps the three or four highlights of your new constitution -- the one adopted in 2005 -- in terms of perhaps what are the most important components within the constitution that advance your Nation's nationhood?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, it would be easy to say, the separation of powers, the branches of governments and things, but I actually think that there are other components that are important here. The first one is a declaration of rights. It's like a bill of rights, but it's actually incorporated into the constitution. That is an important part of this constitution. A second part of the constitution I think that's important is the assertion of the inherent rights, and the fact that we acknowledge that others may have inherent rights, other peoples may have inherent rights. And this document lays out a process, which eventually could result in like a state department, or diplomatic relations with other nations, other nations being other tribal nations, or foreign nations to the United States, or, for instance, relations with the United States itself. You know, they all want to see, check with us to make sure that we're recognized. And when is the last time a tribe asked the federal government to apply for recognition before it's government? And I think that the reciprocal is equally true, and I think that that's something that we should do. We need to realize that that's a two-way street; it isn't just the one-way street. There are tribal organizations who the only way that you can be a member of those organizations is if you're a federally recognized tribe. Well, if you, if you're looking at that, you're basically, the organization is giving up to the federal government the right to decide which among the tribes are going to be able to be members of this tribal organization. As opposed to making that decision asserting their sovereignty and making that decision their own government.

Now it's real easy to say this from a, just a, it's a simple assertion, it's a simple bunch of words. It's a lot of work to actually have to figure out who you're going to have, what other governments you're going to have relations with, and not, and what the criteria is for doing that, and how you choose when you're not choosing just federally recognized tribes. You know, a state-recognized tribe may, and we've had state recognized tribes come to Little Traverse and ask for diplomatic relations, asked us to recognize them. We've had non-recognized, either by federal or state, tribal governments come to us and ask us for acknowledgement. And we have yet to actually work through the mechanisms of that, but one of the important things in this constitution is it lays out the groundwork. It lays out that the basic part of that we will recognize other governments who acknowledge us. And so, I think that's one of the most important parts of this. Because the document, the document itself lays out how we're going to relate to other governments. And I think that's critical. And so those are, those are some of the really important points I see is that there's that, the bill of rights, and then of course the delegation of authority, which in our case is to separation of power branches, different branches. But you could have a constitution that did these previous things, and then set up a different system. This works for us, it doesn't necessarily, wouldn't necessarily work for every tribe. And there may be others that are at different places in their development, different places in their history, that they feel that a different form of government would work. This isn't the only one that works, but this, the document itself, that assertion of inherent sovereignty and the ability to acknowledge other governments, and interact with them, is a fundamental part.

Now the most important part I think in the end of the constitution, that is there, is the statement, the flat assertion of the importance for, that the government is charged with protecting our heritage, our history, and our language -- that these are things that...it's a lens through which we have to look at the rest of the actions and the rest of the constitution. It isn't something that is merely an afterthought or, if you have time do this, or maybe you can do this you know if you get around to it. It's...this is the basic charge to the government so that we have to look at a, when we create a new department, is it furthering these ends? And that's something that, because it's there in the document, it's a tool that our citizenry can measure the effectiveness of their elected leadership as to whether they're doing what they wanted them to do or not."

Ian Record:

"This gets, this is a good segue into another question I wanted to ask, and your statement that you just made merges rather well with the statement I want to share with you that was voiced by a fellow tribal leader who's nation had recently developed a new constitution. He said and I quote, "˜The new constitution is our long-term strategic plan.' So how do you see that statement?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well I think that it, I would look at it that the new constitution, I mean this constitution for us is like the, vision statement and the mission statement. It isn't necessarily the plan. It lays out the fundamentals through which you then would develop your plan. And so to, I would sort of carry that a little further in that, that it clearly sets out, you know, the vision for what the tribe should be, and what the tribe is, and what the people want the tribe to be. And that's the important, an important step. And then, you know, the mission, and it's sort of how you're going to do it is laid there. But the actual specific objectives, you know we were fairly careful to not put specific like objectives and things of that sort into it because those may change over time. We wanted something that would last, not something that every twenty years you'd have to get a new constitution."

Ian Record:

"I wanted to follow up also on this point of culture. Essentially this is, as the culture, the history, the language, the heritage of your people being the lens through which your government would be organized in through, in the lens through which it would decide key matters, and who would decide those key matters. How does you nation's constitution express your people's culture, identity, and goals?"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, it expresses it through a preamble. And I don't have the words memorized, but it lays out the, who we are, it makes a statement of who we are, it makes a statement of what we, what we wish things to be, you know, to perpetuate our culture. And, so we have that section in the preamble, but then it also, there are directives to the government. And not just the preamble that sort of lays out the general tone for the document, but then there's the, this directives to the government and each, that the government's directed to do these things and to perpetuate the language and to protect the youth and protect our elders and to further the safety and to protect the right to work of our members and things of those sort. So we have these things that are built right in, and there's directives to the government. And those things are...we're directed to protect our heritage and culture. And so instead of...heritage and culture and spirituality blend and, but to the extent that we also have freedom of religion within the document so that it's not just, we're not, we promote our heritage and culture, but we tolerate and we're directed that if we have people who are choosing other paths, that we, that they're acknowledged, and their right to do that is acknowledged within our document as well.

So the government has to work on -- like the video that I described earlier -- it helps to protect our, get people understanding what different people in our tribe have done. I mentioned earlier that educational standards act, to me that's an essential part of meeting the constitutional responsibility of protecting our heritage because we want people to know what that is. I ask this question, 'How many of a tribe's citizens can name five chiefs from the 1800s and tell you a little about their lives, what they did? Now how many can name five presidents and tell you a little bit about those presidents?' So, the answer is many more to the second and very few to the first usually. Occasionally there are exceptions, but this is something that we need to try to fix. We need to have people understand who we are because, when I mentioned earlier there's a, we need to have a strong sense of place. And that sense of place is, it's multi-dimensional when you think about a sense of place. A sense of place isn't just the rocks and the trees and the streams and the things, you know. It isn't just that physical place, it isn't your home, or your town. But your sense of place is also your understanding of where you fit into your society. How you fit into your culture. How you fit into the history. And how you fit into your society, and where you fit in your language, where you fit in your, in, how you fit between the past and the future. You know? That interaction between them, that sense of place, that strong, assured sense of place is an attribute of a healthy individual. And as you have healthy individuals, you then have a healthy society. And so we need to try to help do things that foster that strong sense of place. And I believe that this constitution for Little Traverse helps to lay that out. We made every effort we could to make sure that those things would be part of that so that the government would actually; we could measure the success of a government.

When you do, when you work on documents like this, when you work on things like this, you have to prepare for when you're not going to be there. So, you know, you help pass laws so that, if need be, when you're no longer in the, an elected official, you can sue the government if you wanted. You need to make sure that there's, that there's, you know, the ability to do that. You need to make sure that you have the ability to initiative if a government becomes unresponsive and needs to be moved. You need to make sure that you have these things. So you have to build in all these safeguards to make things work well. And so, part of good governance is planning for your own obsolescence."

Ian Record:

"We've heard one leader describe that as, 'Mmy job is to make myself dispensable.'"

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Yeah. I think that's a good way to put it. I like that."

Ian Record:

"I wanted to...you mentioned this early on in the discussion about this interim constitution that you had prior to the passage of the public law that reaffirmed your status in the, at least in the minds of the federal government, as a sovereign nation. And then the new constitution and the difference, inherent between those in terms of dispute resolution, in terms of a, your tribe's, your nation's justice system."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Right."

Ian Record:

"Can you do a quick compare and contrast between the strength and independence of your court system of your dispute resolution within your nation, within the interim system, versus your current system."

Frank Ettawageshik:

"Well, the first constitution, which was actually was a document that involved, and it initially, in its very early incarnations had some of the very typical language where every action within it required approval from the Bureau [of Indian Affairs], okay. You know, so that was a pretty typical of some of the early ones. And so by the time that we actually had it in place so that we were using it at the time of the passage of the reaffirmation act, so it became our interim document, we'd removed all those sections about approval of the Bureau on our legislation. But some constitutions, every single law, every single action that's passed by the council, had to go to the Bureau for approval. They'd have to analyze it, look at it, and when it came back signed from the Bureau then they'd, then they'd become law. Well, you know, that, we didn't have that. But we did have this thing that, with the judiciary, we passed a law that would create a court under the old constitution. And consequently we hired the judge. And the judge worked under contract through this, the law that we passed and, had we chosen, had we disliked the judge we could have fired the judge. And, or dislike a decision that the judge made we could have. The fact that we didn't meant that we respected the fact that we needed an independent court, and we needed to stay out of the court's affairs. But, you know, had things, you know, we certainly had the ability to do that under that old constitution. And that, you know, that isn't a really strong, it doesn't give...

If you're signing a contract with a company that you want to do business with, and the contract requires that you go to tribal court, and you -- because you want to assert sovereignty -- and there's no guarantee that the court will look like the current court. There's no guarantee what the court will look like at the time that the dispute would be taken to them. Or you could change the appearance and the operation of the court during a dispute, during the resolution of a dispute, it makes it a lot less comfortable for someone to acknowledge the sovereignty of your court, and to want to come to your court. And so they're going to demand that you have a waver of immunity, and that you take everything to federal or state courts because they don't have confidence in the tribal system. Your own citizenry have less confidence in the court itself when the court changes or is subject to change that quickly. So under the old system I, it was fairly weak. And it was judicial reform, I think is critical for government development, and probably is the fundamental reason why many constitutions are looked at in the first place. Even if nothing else is changed in them. To have an independent court is a move in the right direction.

Well, under the new constitution the judges are appointed, they're nominated by the executive, and then the nominee goes to the tribal council who holds hearings and talks to the people and asks them in-depth questions like, you know, what do they believe about different issues of constitutional law and, you know, what are they, you know, they ask them the same kind of tough questions that they get asked at any, you know, cause they realize that they're, if they approve the judge the judge is going to be there for a while and, and will have an effect, those rulings will have an effect on the tribal law.

And so as a chief executive, I have nominated, my nominees sometimes were approved, and my nominees were sometimes rejected, and I'd have to go back to the drawing board, come up with someone else. But once the judges were appointed under the new constitution, once they're appointed, there's a trial judge, an associate trial judge, and then three appellate justices. So the judiciary is five appointees. The judiciary itself, after they're appointed, are the only members who can remove a judge. Now, petitions can be brought from other places, I mean the citizens can bring a petition, the council can petition, the executive can petition for removal of a judge. But once a complaint's made, the other members of the judiciary meet to decide if the complaint has merits, and they've had to develop their rules on how they deal with all of this, but they're the ones who remove a judge. So the judiciary polices itself.

Now they also have terms so that an executive can choose to not re-nominate somebody as their term ends. And even if they were re-nominated, if the, if people brought pressure to bear on the council to say we don't like this person, we don't think he should approve this nomination, they can do that. So that's the mechanism for getting rid of a judge and for dealing with the...dealing with the court. All of those are important parts of the process to, for people to have faith that the court will actually do what you think it's going to do. And our court actually developed to the point where we, we had a youth drug court that was part of the court system. And the process that we did through that was so well accepted that we had local state judges who were assigning people to this from their own jurisdictions, as opposed to just our own. And they would be, attend these programs. And so there's those kind of issues. Because of the strength we've had in terms of developing the judiciary, and because of the strength of the constitution and the things that we've put together, we have cross-deputization agreements with two counties.

Our reservation is, resides, is part of two of the counties in the state of Michigan, and we have cross-deputization agreements with both of those sheriffs. So not only have our officers been sworn in by those sheriffs as deputies, but the sheriff and his deputies came to our courtroom. And when we first did this, I administered an oath to them to uphold our tribal constitution, and our tribal laws. And we had a detailed agreement on how we would exercise that, you know. They couldn't just come in on their own. They would come in, there's a protocol for how they come in when they need to, or when we back each other up. And so we developed seamless law enforcement that was to the betterment of health and public safety for not only our citizens, but for the non-tribal citizens who are a part of the whole region in which we live."

NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow: Rae Nell Vaughn (Part 1)

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

Rae Nell Vaughn, former Chief Justice of the Mississippi Choctaw Supreme Court, discusses the critical role that justice systems play in the rebuilding of Native nations and shares how the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians has worked to develop its justice system to reflect and promote its culture and meeting the evolving challenges that it faces.

Resource Type
Citation

Vaughn, Rae Nell. "NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow (Part 1)." Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management, and Policy, University of Arizona. Tucson, Arizona. September 15, 2009. Interview.

Ian Record:

"What role do tribal justice systems play in rebuilding Native nations?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"It's been my experience that it plays a significant role in regards to tribal government. One thing that I have found within the 11 years of my judicial experience is the fact that tribal governments as a whole have had to play a role of catch-up, fast tracked. In regards to Mississippi Choctaw, we established our constitution in 1945 at a point in time where we were living in very oppressed conditions. Of course, as you know, historically the tribe was removed to Oklahoma and we're the descendants of the members that chose to stay. No federal or state recognition at that point up until the time of recognition and the development of our constitution, and it was a building process. You had a number of leaders who would step up and were wanting to form a strong government. Of course, the justice system itself came in years later, but overall they've had to try to fast track a government in order to provide the people with services, and it was a struggle, it was a definite struggle. And of course ultimately, a justice system was developed under the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs], a court of regulations, a CFR [Code of Federal Regulations] court, and that had its challenges all on its own because you have the mechanisms but not the resources to provide law and order. And your reliance was on the BIA and it was a definite struggle during the early years of this system. You had a membership maybe at that time of close to 3,000 possibly.

Now going back historically, the membership dwindled down in the early 1900s to less than 1,000 because of the influenza epidemic and here we are in 2009 and have a membership of 10,000. And you talk about a flourishing economy at some point with the successes of this tribe, but you also talk about the population growth and with it coming the social ills and influences that impact a community. And so I've seen this system evolve, even prior to my interaction with it, becoming a judge. It's grown by leaps and bounds. They started off with a staff of maybe three: a tribal member judge -- when it was under the control of BIA -- and maybe one or two folks that also participated. And to this point, once...during my tenure as a judge, we were up to 32 employees. You had 11 members on the judiciary, which is so unheard of, but for me it was a signal from the government [that], 'This is important. A justice system for this government is important and we are investing in our government and in our people to provide them a fair form of justice.' Knowing where we're at, we're located in Mississippi, and the struggles that minorities have faced, Native people have faced, has always been there, an underlying issue. And so being able to have our people be in a forum that's fair for them, being judged by their peers was the most important thing. But also it was the fundamental exercise of sovereignty, operating a system, a judicial system, which not many tribes have had the ability to do and maybe not to the degree that we've been able to do it. That's not to say that there haven't been any challenges. There are, just like there are with any system, whether it's a tribal system or non-Native system, but it's a work in progress. Codes are forever changing and you have to keep your hand on...keep on the pulse of what's happening nationally because what happens nationally will ultimately affect you locally.

And so cases such as Nevada v. Hicks, issues of jurisdiction, those have far-reaching ramifications. So having a stable, consistent, and well-educated and well-trained judiciary is very important, and those are the things that I think tribal governments really have to take a look at and recognize the investment that you're making."

Ian Record:

"And I would assume that in that understanding of what's going on nationally, it's not just the judiciary that has to understand, it's elected leadership and particularly the legislators, the ones that are making those laws to say, "˜We've got to be out front on these issues so we're not stuck in a corner one day in the near future having to react defensively to something we're not prepared for.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Exactly. We have to be proactive. It hits every area of government: economic development, education, healthcare. We have to be very diligent and we have to go the extra mile in making sure that we're protecting our sovereignty and at the same time being aware of what the landscape is looking like politically. There have been times in previous [U.S. presidential] administrations where they haven't been quite so favorable to Native Americans. And we may be here at a time of renaissance where there's going to be more participation, more of us as Native people at the table speaking on our behalves, on our own behalf. As a Native person, this is where I've been, this is what we've gone through and this is what we can do and this is what we want to provide for the people, because at times Native people get lost in the shuffle of all the social programs and issues that the federal government itself is dealing with. There are some tribes that are very fortunate to have the additional revenues to provide for their tribes and some aren't. How do we all work together to make sure that each of these tribes are able to have the type of support to be able to function and exercise as a government?"

Ian Record:

"Mississippi Choctaw's court system was recognized by the Honoring Nations program at the Harvard Project in American Indian Economic Development just a few years ago. And in large part it was recognized because of its ability to exercise or to be a vehicle for sovereignty for the nation. Based on your experience in that system, in that court system, I was wondering if you could speak to this issue of strong independent court systems and what those look like, what do those systems require to be effective?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"That's a very good question, because it's a challenge that all tribal court systems face. And let me say that the Honoring Nations program was such an excellent exercise for us, because as a system you're in the trenches every day and you don't realize the things that you're doing have such far-reaching impact. And so when we began this process of going through the rigors of the Honoring Nations project program, I was just so amazed. "˜We're doing so much here, we're looking at alternative resources and programs, we're trying to look at things more holistically versus using the American jurisprudence of dropping the gavel and that's it,' because we recognize that within Native communities we're going to be among one another. I'm not moving anywhere, you're not moving anywhere, we're staying in this community, and it's trying to ensure that we have healthy communities and using the justice system and possibly not just going before formal court, using our peacemaker court, using teen court, using our healing-to-wellness court, are other alternatives that are available to the membership and it goes back to our own Native teaching of who we are. We were never a people -- as with other tribes -- that all we wanted to do was fight amongst one another, but of course all of this takes place based on social influences and evolution of things and prosperity. And so going back to your question, it requires due diligence among both sides of the aisle, the legislative body, the executive as well as the judiciary. And it's a really hard balance because I'm a member of the community, I have children who attend the schools, I'm a voting member, I see people at the post office or at the grocery store, I attend ceremonies, I'm involved just as all the other judges are; simply because we put on a robe during the day doesn't mean that that robe ever really comes off, but we also have to be able to be participatory in our communities. And it is, it's a hard balance, even with your legislative body because we all know each other, we've all grown up with one another possibly or they've seen you grow up and know your mother and there's this tendency of picking up the phone and saying, "˜Hey, what's going on and do you know da da da da da?' And it is, it's a really hard balance because of the close ties and the close knitness of the community and it's that community mentality that you have. But we work diligently to ensure that the people recognize that this is a very independent justice system. Now granted, in the case of Mississippi Choctaw, we're a two-branch government. The court system is developed by statute and is controlled, maybe that's not a good word, but is under the oversight of the tribal council as well as the executive. There've been times where it's been challenging because you wear two hats. Not only are you a member of the judiciary, but you have to be an advocate for the system, and so there's that give and take, development of codes. How can I not be somewhat participatory in the development when I'm the one who uses that code in order to...we're creating law basically, and there are several instances where it's almost a gray area that you enter, but knowing what the spirit of the law is and where we are as a judiciary and what we're trying to accomplish I think speaks volumes because the people see the separation. And it's something that you have to work at every day. You just, you have to."

Ian Record:

"So in your role as advocate for the system in strengthening the system, do you find yourself compelled at certain points to say to the legislature, "˜Look, there's...I'm dealing with these...this area of jurisprudence, these types of cases are becoming more prevalent. There's nothing on the books that tells me how to interpret these cases. It's up to you to get out in front of this,' as you mentioned, "˜and develop law that I can then enforce in the court system?'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Exactly. One case in point is the Tribal Notice Act and that's very important, especially if you have two parties coming in and there's an issue that could possibly have a detrimental impact on the tribe, maybe possibly in regards to jurisdiction. And the tribe needs to know; the tribe needs to be noticed. And so we worked towards getting that on the books and we were successful. And it's a mechanism or a code that's been used a number of times. And so things of that sort, because you recognize or the people recognize the legislative body and executive body, they're dealing with so many different issues from economic development, healthcare, education, housing. There's not one person or one area that they're focusing in on. So I would not be doing my duty if I didn't bring things to their attention that I think could provide betterment for the system and also protecting the people as well."

Ian Record:

"So you're also, in addition to your experience, your 11 years as you mention serving on the Choctaw judiciary, you've since...you left that, your tenure with the judiciary, and you've been working to evaluate other tribal court systems. And I was wondering if you could speak to this issue. We discussed this recently about some tribes, some tribal leadership not really treating the judicial function of their nation as an independent...as an independent function, as a true arm of the government, whether you want to call it a 'branch' or what have you, but rather treating it as a program. And we hear this a lot from particularly tribal judges who lament that fact that, "˜We're just considered another program.' I was wondering if you could speak to that issue and what you're seeing on the ground."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Oh, yeah. And it's not so much with the work that I'm doing, but additionally with my participation with the national organization, the judges association, as well as my own experiences with Mississippi Choctaw. There's the thinking that tribal court systems are more situated or in the organizational things as a program, and either we fund you or we don't or...there's not that understanding of the importance of justice systems and how in regards to economic development, justice systems are key. And a lot...I've heard so many war stories about how we are treated as -- I hate to use the term -- as stepchildren. We get the hand-me-down equipment, we get the little bits of whatever is additional that we can get in our budget, but what I found throughout my work and my experiences with the judiciary is the fact that there are so many good people out there in Indian Country, members of their own tribe who want to provide a forum, a fair forum for their people and they work diligently with what resources they have. Now if it was a perfect world and we were able to get all that we want, that would be ideal, but it's not and a number of tribes who don't have the additional resources struggle, and for some of these tribes it's a really challenging thing because you're also not only at the mercy of the government, but at the community as well and there...if you don't feel that support from your government, then obviously the community's not going to support you as well and those are some key things that have to happen is to have that support. 'Now you and I may argue here, but when we step out as a judiciary and as a government, we need to be unified, because each of us as a legislative body and as an executive body and whether we're a judicial branch or a statutory court, we still have to work and maintain as a stable government,' because if your leadership is bad mouthing your judicial system, what does that say of the leadership?"

Ian Record:

"What does that say to the outside world?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Exactly."

Ian Record:

"So this issue of treatment by the leadership, by the community of the justice system as a program versus something more, among those tribes that tend to treat them as the latter -- just as a program -- aren't they missing the boat essentially on the importance of justice systems as a vehicle for not only advancing sovereignty, but also creating viable economies on the reservations and pretty much all around?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Exactly, because a lender who is thinking about doing business with the tribe is going to ask, "˜I need to know about your court system. I need to know where litigation is going to take place,' and if they can't see a system that is stable and consistent, you're possibly missing an opportunity to bring strong economic development to your area and that's key. I think a lot that has to happen is education. Now again, I go back -- I recognize there's so much that tribal government has to do. They're overloaded, they're understaffed in some instances, and they're trying to do the best they can do, but at the end of the day it's important to make sure that each of your areas of government are strong and are working together and that's where your checks and balances are. It's basic civics."

Ian Record:

"One other issue we discussed recently was this issue of...this treatment of tribal justice systems as nothing more than programs may emanate in part from this sense of, "˜Well, that's where the bad things happen.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Oh, yes."

Ian Record:

"...That's where, kind of the social ills bubble up, that's where the kind of the underbelly of the community, the negative parts. "˜We don't want to deal with that. It's too painful,' or 'We don't...we're at a loss as to how to resolve these issues.' How do you get beyond that mentality? How do you get to a point where -- as you've told me -- where the people, the community, that the leadership will treat the justice system as a vehicle for not only restoring, as you say restoring health to the community, but also as a way to, for instance, teach the values of the people to say, "˜This is how we operate, this is how we resolve disputes.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"One of the bad things or the negative side of the judicial system is the fact that a lot of things happen in the well of that court and at the end of it all, "˜It's the court,' "˜It's the court's fault,' or whatever it may be because it's surfaced, it has bubbled up as you said, it's surfaced and there it is black and white, right there in the well of that court. And ultimately it's the judge and their discretion as how they rule or decide or what it is that they end up doing for that particular case, whether it be a habitual offender, whether it be a family in need, a juvenile delinquent, a vulnerable adult. All of the social ills of your community hits right there and it is challenging more so again for your legislative body and your executive because what do they do, what can they do? We've developed so many different social programs, but we're not going to cure every ill, and unfortunately a lot of those things surface through court. And as I shared with you earlier, that's why we were looking at, in regards to Mississippi Choctaw, of other alternatives. We recognize these are social illnesses. This is not working, going through formal court. Something has to happen and it also has to happen not only with the individual, but with the family: accountability, responsibility, bringing in the people who matter the most to you and who you value, who are your mentors or your grandparents, your minister, your family to sit down and talk with you, help you in a peacemaking-type situation, a circle of sorts. Healing to Wellness [Court] is set up in that very same way, that we have there at Choctaw where the offender comes in, meets with a group of multi-disciplinary team and there's a check, there's this constant check, and we've had so many success stories come through there. Is it 100 percent? No, it's not, and it probably will never be, but there is an alternative, and with the one case that you have a success in, [it] ripples out to the family, to the community, to the nation in regards to the offenses, health issues that may have come from it, all the different things. And that success just can only breed more success because if you have this individual whose gone through this process, you see the community, see that individual being successful and others who are coming before the court say, "˜I want to try that because I'm ready to make that change,' then there's that vehicle."

Ian Record:

"So I would assume under the CFR system, there's no way that you guys could have developed these restorative functions."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"There is no way, no."

Ian Record:

"So essentially by developing your own court system, by taking ownership of that critical function, you provided yourself the freedom to say, "˜What's going to benefit our community in the long run? What's the best way of doing things, because the status quo is simply not working.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"No, it's not working and it doesn't work in Indian Country. And what may work for Choctaw, what may work for the tribes in the east may not work for tribes in the southwest or in the west or in the northwest or in the midwest or northeast. It works for us and looking at the different models you can see things that will work. There's this term I use, "˜Choctaw-izing it' -- making it your own, bringing in Choctaw values, culture, customary law into this model and it works, and it works, and the people understand it. That's the thing, the people say, "˜Hmmmm, yes, I know what you're talking about.'"

Ian Record:

"So can you give me just a...you mentioned this term 'Choctaw-izing' it. Can you give me one example, maybe one case of how the court system applied a core value of the Choctaw people to essentially try to bring that restoration to the community?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"As I shared with you earlier, we have a teen court process and in that process the individual, the juvenile delinquent goes through the formal youth court system. Teen court is more of a sentencing type court, but the uniqueness of it is they are judged, are sentenced by their peers, other teenagers in the community. We had a particular instance where there was this child who of course offended, committed a crime against the tribe, was found delinquent. The case wasn't or the offense wasn't to the level of the judge issuing the sentence so he transferred it to teen court and it went through the process, but the uniqueness is -- and this is where the cultural aspect came in -- is we had the judge bring the mother and the grandmother and auntie because we are a matrilineal society. And before the sentence was rendered by the peers, by the jury, the women stood up and they talked and they talked with both sides of the parties who were there -- because this was a boyfriend-girlfriend, teenager-type thing -- and how it was important to respect your family, respect your parents, to listen, and if that wasn't the most empowering thing along with their peers giving them the sentencing, I don't know what would be. It was so powerful and moving. And let me tell you, people sat up and took notice and you gave respect, you listened. And that's one instance where that...we were able to have that and that was just such a learning tool for our young people to sit there and go through that and to listen. Even though they weren't the offenders, but they knew exactly, they knew exactly. It was almost like a reawakening. "˜I know this, but we don't do it all the time,' and like, "˜Whoa!'"

Ian Record:

"So in that instance, the court was not even an intermediary between the community, the culture, and the issue at hand. They were actually just a mechanism for connecting those two."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Facilitating just basically, just putting those people and things together. And it's...one thing of...and when I first entered the court system I served as a youth court judge. And the one thing I would tell our kids, when they'd come before the bench and with that attitude, being rebellious, and "˜You can't tell me what to do,' is, "˜The offense you've committed, you think maybe committed against this particular individual or this particular family or to the school, vandalism, whatever.' I said, "˜But you're not hurting those particular individuals, you're hurting the tribe, and in essence you're hurting yourself. So what has to happen here is you have to make this right and you're making it right at the end of the day for yourself.' And for some kids it didn't click, of course being rebellious and angry and everything, but for some it did. They understood. And again, you never really had a lot of successes. You had some successes and statistically Native American Country and as well as in dominant society you knew that there were higher chances of your young people moving into the adult system, but we tried very hard and that's why we were looking at all these other alternatives. Many Native communities have such small memberships, and so when you have a lot of delinquency going on, number-wise it may not appear to be a lot, but there on the ground it's epidemic and that's one of the things governments need to recognize and why it's such an important thing to make sure that you're supporting and investing in all of these types of things that keep your system, your justice system strong, consistent and stable."

Ian Record:

"So what do you see as the major challenges facing tribal jurisdiction today?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Oh, my goodness. That's something that tribes are facing all the time and it's amazing to me how we do have the jurisdiction that we do have. There have been challenges locally, and as I'm trying to think back here, we've had a number of cases that we've dealt with ourselves at Mississippi Choctaw where you have a civil matter that came before the court and they were running concurrently with the circuit court, the federal court. And it was an issue concerning a, it wasn't a loan company, a bank, it was a bank and a big problem with a salesperson going into the community and of the lender reneging of sorts -- just a really basic background of that case. And tribal members who had signed up for this service, which I believe was a satellite case, then did a class action against the lender. The party then went to the federal court, the federal court in turn sent the case back telling the parties that, "˜You have to exhaust tribal jurisdiction before you can even attempt to make it here,' which I think said a lot for not only our tribe, but for tribes in Indian Country to have a federal court say, "˜You have to exhaust all remedies before you even make it here.' Now you and I both know that that's not commonplace and I think that sent a very, very big message. Why would that have ever been decided? I think a lot of it had to do with the court itself because it was a functional court, it is a functional court, renders opinions, clear decisions and it's consistent. And I think that had a lot to do with why we were able or the federal court made the decision it made.

Now Indian Country, tribes in Indian Country are constantly faced with issues of jurisdictions and I can't speak so much for these other tribes, but just from the readings I've seen and in the issues that I've heard about, it's constant. For example, I know that there was a tribe in California that had the state come in wanting to look at employment records. If that wasn't a clear crossing of the line, a failure of respect of another sovereign, I don't know what is and that's clearly overstepping jurisdictional lines. But those types of things happen and that's where you really have to, as a government, make sure that you have the type of legal representation for yourself to protect you as a tribe because you have it coming from every angle, from every area of wanting to chip away at what jurisdiction you do have. It's bad enough that we don't have criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians and as a gaming tribe there's a lot of issues that we have to deal with and we're at the mercy of the county or we're at the mercy of the federal government and its system. It makes no sense to me. Logically, we know when, I know when I cross the boundary and I go into Philadelphia, if I commit a crime, I'm going to be dealt with in Philadelphia court. It's a no-brainer. And this is an issue that's been talked about time and time again. I know I'm not going to change it, but I'm going to give you my two cents. It sucks, it's not productive and there are people who agree. There are people on the outside who do agree that you should have the ability to incarcerate, to judge any individual who commits a crime, an offense against the tribe or this jurisdiction. And we don't have that ability. And then you have the civil jurisdiction, which is always being tested and it's just so important that when we have issues that come up through tribal court systems that as a judiciary you're giving well-thought-out opinions and it's iron-clad so that you can't...it won't be unraveled and then there you go, you've lost more jurisdiction."

Ian Record:

"And it's not just making the decisions, it's actually documenting those decisions and having those ready in an accessible fashion, and that's where it's important to build the system of justice not just have judges making decisions."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Yes, exactly. You're exactly right because you have a lot of these systems that are in varying degrees of development and I am a big believer of having tribal members sitting on the court. Unfortunately, you don't have enough people who come to the court, come to the bench with a legal background. I'm not law trained. And so it's challenging and it's a struggle. Fortunately, our tribe made investments of having individuals on the bench with the juris doctorate providing us with legal technical consultation so that we're not standing there twisting in the wind, "˜Well, what do we do?' And so we're able to have this body of law, opinions that come from this court, that are guiding tools for not only us as a tribe, but also for other tribes should they wish to use it. I know that there are different companies or organizations who collect all of these opinions across Indian Country, which is good so that there is a body of law for other tribes to go in and take a look at and look at precedent and things of that sort. And we need more of that, but what we also need to do is be able to reach out and get this information to people. As I said earlier, you have a number of people whose systems are at varying degrees, tribes whose systems are at varying degrees and there are times where I think we do a disservice. Again, I am a big proponent for having tribal members on the bench, but you also have to be able to have someone there who is knowledgeable and can understand law, the analysis, the logic and to be able to generate really good opinions and good decisions. Are we right all the time? No, not necessarily, even those who have the jurisprudence isn't right all the time, but it's based on interpretation."

Ian Record:

"So it's really important then for tribes to invest in capacity in not only of people...tribal members who eventually will be judges, but also those clerks and other people in law enforcement."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Because let me tell you, those clerks are down on the ground doing all the work and there have been instances where I have seen they have ultimately become judges and they come in with all the knowledge of working every facet of that system in the sense of dealing with attorneys, looking at orders. It's amazing to me. Some of these clerks that I've talked with in my travels would say, "˜Yeah, I knew that wasn't what needed to happen.' It's just amazing the knowledge, the experience they gain and I have seen many instances where some of these clerks did step up or were appointed to serve as a judge and made excellent judges because they had the hands-on training and going through the process of the documentation, the order development and things of that sort. So it's key, it's very key in regards to having strong judges training and education."

Ian Record:

"So backing up a bit to what you were discussing a few minutes ago and this issue of...essentially, what you were talking about was transparency and jurisprudence, that it's not enough just to make decisions. You have to make sure that those decisions are clear, that they're open to not only the citizens of the nation, but to the outside world and that they're understandable and that they're accessible. Is that what Mississippi Choctaw has done? Is that what you're seeing other tribes starting to do? Are more nations really beginning to understand the importance of transparency in jurisprudence?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"For Mississippi Choctaw, yes, it's something that we strive for; it's not cloak and dagger, it's no big secret. Whatever decision is rendered and the opinion is generated, we had a procedure where we informed all arms of government, especially if it was something that was very critical, maybe a jurisdictional issue, something that would affect the tribe. They received notice, they received a copy of the opinion, and then in general opinions that were generated from the Supreme Court, that's 101. You need to get them to see this and also there may be messages in these opinions that say, "˜Look, this is how we ruled, but if we don't make changes to the body of the law that we have, we're going to hit this time and time again. You might want to think about it, but we're not telling you...we're not changing the law, we're not going to change this piece of legislation, but we want you to think about it.' And so it is, transparency is important. Again, going back to the issue of where tribal courts are and the varying degrees they are, those more established courts such as Navajo Nation have a large body of opinions and a body of law there that you can...I tap into it. I've tapped into that as well as Eastern Band of Cherokee -- your bigger, more established systems. And so you have that transparency there, but again it goes back to where the systems are in development."

Ian Record:

"I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about an ever-present dynamic in tribal jurisprudence and that is tribal politics and there's a reason why you're laughing. I assume you know exactly what I'm talking about."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"It's the bullseye right there."

Ian Record:

"But I wanted to get your sense of what you've seen in terms of the impacts of political interference in tribal jurisprudence and dispute resolution and essentially how far-reaching those things can be."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"There are many tribes that face this very question of political interference. And it's a hard line to walk, it really is. I think a lot of it has to do with who you are as a person and your integrity and what you yourself are willing to allow and not allow. And at the end of the day, just like I tell my children, "˜If it's an issue that you're really passionate about and you know this is what you need to do, sometimes you're standing by yourself,' and as judges that's ultimately what we end up doing is end up there standing by ourselves and telling whomever it may be, "˜No, you cannot cross this line.' Are there ramifications for those choices? Yes, in some instances there are. And that's unfortunate because of the messages that it sends not only to your community, but -- again as we talked about earlier -- to the outside world. If an individual makes a decision and in the eyes of the government it's perceived as a bad decision and it possibly wasn't in favor of what they wanted and they make sweeping change, who is going to want to step up and serve if there's the possibility of failing to comply or abide by what they're wanting. When you step up and become a judge, all of what you may have supported or your political views all fall by the wayside. Your primary concern is the interpretation of law, dealing with that case that's before you, that's it -- not what the politics are because they cannot be influential, they cannot be influential to what you're doing because if that's the case, then why have a court? Why not let the tribal council run the court? They want to, I know they do, but it's again checks and balances and the maintaining of independence. And I see it time and time again. I've heard so many war stories."

Ian Record:

"Yeah, we see some tribes that still have, particularly with those tribes that have Indian Reorganization Act systems of government where the standard constitution said, "˜The council can create a court system as it sees fit,' essentially and..."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Oh, in our code it does state that. It says, "˜If funds are available,' and I thought, "˜Well, what does this mean?' But for the time that that code was developed, that's again going back to, "˜Well, is this is a system or is this a program?' It's clear even in our general provisions, "˜If funds are available, we will operate this court.'"

Ian Record:

"Yeah, some of those IRA [Indian Reorganization Act] systems you still see to this day where the root of appeal of a tribal court decision is back to the council."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"And we do have that in Choctaw in some instances. Example, if there's an election challenge the court has no...there's no venue in our area. It goes directly to the tribal council once it goes through the election committee. And there is a valid challenge then it's ultimately the tribal council which makes the decision whether to say, "˜Yes, this is a void election or no, it's not.'"

Ian Record:

"You mentioned a few minutes back the messages that are...the very clear messages that are sent when there is political interference and tribal jurisprudence and I was wondering if you'd maybe perhaps talk about that a little bit more specifically because you mentioned messages not only to the community but to the outside world. What kind of messages do those send when you do see that political interference? And perhaps how does that impact the tribe in the long run?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Oh, yes. It does not put tribal government in a very good light when you have that type of interference. Sometimes it comes across as being more of a dictatorship versus a democracy. It really makes greater society doubt in the ability of that government of being able to provide for the people true leadership. And I know as a sovereign nation there have been other tribes and this is just from my travels and visiting with other jurisdictions and sharing war stories. We are under such a microscope, not only the judicial system, but the overall tribal government in Indian Country. We are constantly being held at an even higher standard. Yes, we need to be at a high standard, yes, but it appears when there's just a small hiccup or a small misstep it's magnified 100 times. "˜Well, you see, that's why we don't deal with that tribe,' for whatever reason it may be and it could be miniscule, but for the outside world it's like waiting. They're lying in wait for you to trip and fall. Choctaw itself has had its ups and downs. There's not a tribe that hasn't. We've seen successes, we've seen challenges, but we continue to persevere because of our membership. We're not going anywhere. At one point we were the third top employer of the State of Mississippi providing economic development, providing income for this state and that speaks volumes. Now we're dealing with the issues of the economy, the national economy and the effects that it's having on our tribe and we're having to act and react to those things and it's not been favorable, but we also have to be sustainable for our people and there are hard decisions that we have to make and we've made those decisions, rightly or wrongly, whatever may be perceived on the outside world, as a sovereign we have to maintain for the people."

Ian Record:

"You mentioned this issue of outsiders are looking very closely at what tribes do and in many respects they're waiting for tribes to mess up and using it as an excuse to say, "˜Okay, either we don't want to deal with them or they shouldn't have sovereignty,' whatever it might be. And I think that's really where court systems are critical because in many respects they're the most tangible connection, the most visible reflection of what tribes are doing and what tribe's abilities are, what their capacity is, how they make decisions. Is that something you've experienced at Choctaw?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Yes, very much so, very much so. We've been fortunate. Legal communities -- whether it's on the reservation or off reservation -- are small and word of mouth is very powerful. People know what's going on, whether they're on the reservation or not, they know what's going on and it's really key on how you bring these people in and how you...and also educating, educating them about what we are and who we are as a sovereign nation. One of the things that we provide as a system is a form of a bar meeting and providing them training, bringing to them things that are happening on the national level, educating them, and that's key -- going out and educating. And that's a lot of what I did as well during my time with the court. I've gone to Harvard, to Southern, to University of Southern Mississippi, to the University of Mississippi Law School, to Mississippi State [University], to a lot of the local universities within the state to talk about this very system. And they're so amazed at one, we're not just this casino that they see talked about on TV. Secondly, that there is a functional government, but what they're also very surprised at going back to what we've talked about earlier is the fact that there is no jurisdiction over non-Indians and that's always been the big, "˜Ah ha. Are you kidding me? How can that be if we're in this country of the land of the free and our constitution, our U.S. Constitution,' but that's what the cards we're dealt with. And that's how fragile these systems and governments are because I'm sure if the federal government wants to, and again looking at how governments are exercising their sovereignty or lack there of, they would be more than willing to come in there. It just says that we have to provide you with health and education, but it doesn't really say to what degree so I can...you'll take what I give you and that's where as sovereign nations we really have to be diligent about our exercise of government and of our sovereignty. We have to be. I know I sound like this...I sound like this caped crusader, "˜We've got to be. Somebody has to be at the gate and it's going to be me,' but there needs...there really needs to be more development of people who understand public service of giving back to the people and we've got to cultivate that."

Ian Record:

"So you've made references to the incredible growth of the Mississippi Choctaw's economy over the past several decades and I'll ask you a very blunt question. Could Mississippi Choctaw when it comes to economic development be where it is today if they, for instance had what's often referred to as a 'kangaroo court'?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"The short answer, no, I don't believe they could be. This system was and is, continues to be an evolving system and I think with the right leadership it was determined that there are certain things we're going to have to put in place in order to be successful and strengthening the court system was one of them. This system was taken into management of the tribe in 1985 and was operating with a very skeletal group of people and then they expanded the service. And then in 1997 there was another reorganization where they developed very distinct divisions of court. This would give the system the capacity to handle all civil matters. We had well over 1,000 people working for the tribe in the hospitality portion of it and of the industrial arm of it. The majority of these people were non-Indian. Where are civil actions going to take place? In our court if they're working for this tribe. You also had, once gaming came into play and tribal members were receiving per capita, a rush of people wanting to enroll and so our enrollment jumped by leaps and bounds from 3,000 to 4,000 to almost 10,000. And so you had to have the ability to handle all the issues that come with the economic growth and the court system and law enforcement are the people that deal with a lot of the day to day issues that come with that prosperity."

Ian Record:

"So in many ways the court system is the primary vehicle for managing growth for tribes."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"I would say so. People may disagree but I would say so."

Ian Record:

"So I wanted to ask you a bit more about this issue of justice systems and how they maintain stability in law and order and how does that... how does the justice system at Choctaw provide that for the people?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Well, we've been fortunate that the tribe has taken over, like I said earlier, management of the law enforcement division. It's now the Department of Public Services, as well as the court system itself. The tribe itself has also contributed to our legal community and I include law enforcement in that and detention as well by providing legal counsel for the tribe. We have an attorney general's office that's set up as well as a legal defense, which is the equivalent of legal aid for individual tribal members and so we have a pretty diverse legal community there. This provides for the community, for the people the ability to be represented within our system, but not only within our system, should there be issues that occur off reservation they have the ability to use legal defense to represent them as well in issues such as maybe child support type issues if it's a non-Indian and Choctaw union and the marriage dissolved and there are challenges and things may end up taking place off reservation for whatever reason. Also, the ability if they need counsel in federal cases as well because you know as well as I do that there's always challenges there where the level of adequacy of representation at the federal level. We've seen time and time again where Native people have just not had proper representation, which also dovetails into the additional work that I do as a commissioner for the Mississippi Access for Justice, ensuring that all people have the ability to have legal representation for their issues. But for the people, just knowing that there's law enforcement, there's a police officer there who is not out there on his own. There's a strong department and when I call I know they'll be here not in three hours, maybe within 30 minutes or 15 minutes depending on the location because we are managing our own law enforcement. What does that say for the greater communities? We're able to assist them as cross-deputized officers, peace officers, to assist them with whatever issues may be taking place. Again, going back to jurisdictional issues, there's always, "˜Well, where are we? Are we on Choctaw land or are we on county land? Where are we?' And so it's a tough call at times. Sometimes somebody has to pull the map out and say, "˜Yeah, well, here's the line.' And so it speaks volumes as to partnerships that have to be developed and strengthened to show stability, for them to see the stability of this system. And it spills over even into the court. We had an instance where there was an issue off reservation with two tribal members being dealt with in the county court and the court was familiar with our peacemaking, Itti Kana Ikbi, court, our traditional form of court. And he called up our peacemaker and said, "˜Look, I have this issue here. I think that it should be better resolved...it could be better resolved with you and peacemaking.' That is unheard of for a county court to turn its jurisdiction over to a tribal court. Even I was taken aback. But societies are changing and there are times of tension in race relations, yes, we recognize that. And to see something like that happen only proves more to me that we as a people, not only tribal members, but as people are changing and recognizing that we are just as capable as our counterparts are and that also signals stability."

Ian Record:

"I think in that particular instance, part of to me is them probably saying, that county court judge saying, "˜Hey, those guys do things, they do it right, they... yes, they have their own systems, their own principles that they administer justice on, but they do it consistently, they do it fairly and I have confidence in turning this over knowing that they'll resolve this dispute in a good way.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And so that generated even more conversation and we have a very good rapport with the county courts and so there have been times where other issues, other instances have taken place, but that was just the turning point. And to be quite honest, I never would have thought I would have seen things like that happen in my lifetime. There's always been this sense of separation and I'm sure it is with other Indian tribes. "˜You're the Indian tribe, you're over there. Here we are metropolitan society. You do your own thing and we'll do our own,' but we're all members of the community, of our communities, and it's being able to interact with one another and working for the greater good of the entire people because don't forget, it's the people who are living outside that are probably working for the tribes on the reservation. So there has to be, whether they like it or not, there has to be a relationship."

Ian Record:

"Yeah, we hear this more and more often, this refrain from tribal leaders of, Native nations aren't islands and they can't act like there are. They can't exercise their sovereignty in isolation, that for them to advance their strategic priorities they're going to have to, of their own volition, build these working relationships with other sovereigns, with other jurisdictions, with other governments, with other municipalities in order to advance their priorities and create a better community."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Exactly, and I think that's what has been the successes of what has created an environment of success for our tribe, for Mississippi Choctaw, has been those relationships whether it's local, state or federal, having those relationships not only within your executive branches and legislative branches, but also within your judiciary. Maybe I was in the judiciary the fifth year of my tenure and I had the opportunity, and it was such a very moving moment, when I had the Chief Justice of the State of Mississippi and his associate justice come down. He came down to Choctaw and sat down and had a conversation with me, the Chief Justice of Choctaw Supreme Court, his counterpart to talk about, "˜How can we help one another?' And that's something that is...I couldn't even imagine that happening. And I shared with him... and we got to know one another and we've become good friends and I said, "˜It had to do with the people and the timing.' Everything just came and lined up and it worked. And so we were able...and we have and we've continued that relationship even with the new Chief Justice, that there continues to be and as well as my new counterpart, there continues to be this continuation of the relationship and it has to be. And it's good that it's now recognized."

Ian Record:

"A couple more questions here. This issue of...getting back to the issue of when you have a justice system creating this environment of stability, of law and order, of certainty, of essentially offering a fair forum for the resolution of disputes where people feel that, "˜If I need to go have a case heard, whether I'm an offender or the one that's the victim in this case, that it will be resolved or adjudicated based on the merits of that case.' Doesn't that send a pretty powerful message to not just those outside investors, but also to your own people that, "˜Hey, this is a place where I can come or I can remain and invest my time, invest my resources, invest my skills, my ideas and the future of the nation.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"One thing that I know people struggle with is understanding the system and once you enter in and begin going through all the different processes, they then realize how difficult it is to go through the court system per se. And it may have been designed specifically for that, because you certainly don't want frivolous actions coming before the court. You certainly don't want a manipulation of the system and so it's holding all parties accountable. And the messages that it sends to the people, I would hope, and that was always our hope, was that, "˜You will receive fairness here when you walk through these doors. You will see an individual there who is going to render justice, whether it's on your behalf or not, whether it's for you or it's not.' Of course when the person fails to get the decision they want, you have that as well. But I know that in my dealings with the legislative body, they recognize it as well and at times you have to let the community member vent. They're also your constituents and so you've got to let them vent, but also talking them through, "˜Well, this is what it is but you also have the ability to appeal,' which is the beauty of it all. There is still another forum to go to if you're dissatisfied and if it's a true error of law, then you do have another venue to go to. In some instances, most tribes don't have that luxury."

Ian Record:

"Several years ago we were talking with Norma Gourneau, she was...at the time she was the vice chair at Northern Cheyenne, and they were dealing with this issue of...the court judges were just getting steamrolled by councilors every time...they were having a big issue for instance with automobile repossessions by off reservation dealerships and these off reservation dealerships would get a default on a car loan, they'd come on the reservation to get the repo order enforced so they could actually come on the reservation and pick up the car. The tribal member who was in default would go to a council member and say, "˜Oh, I need my car.' The council member would lean on the judge, the judge would rule on the tribe's behalf. Before long nobody's selling cars to tribal members. And so what she said was they put a fix in there. They did a constitutional reform, they insulated the court from political interference and she said, "˜What I found was I had a lot more...I found myself empowered because I wasn't dealing with those issues anymore. I could now...I wasn't putting out those fires of having to interfere in the court system so now I could focus on what was really important for the tribe, which was where are we headed, where are we going and how do we get there?' Is that...do you see that as an important dynamic to have when the court system is insulated from that essentially liberates elected leaders to focus on those things?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"I wish there was more of a way to make that happen for all of us because we all deal with those...again, it goes back to what we talked about earlier -- political interference -- and again it's up to you as an individual of your integrity whether you allow it or not. Yes, they can be pretty quick to apply pressure on you. Yes, we've dealt with those types of things. It was always astonishing to me when a vendor would call and say, "˜Well, this is happening and I'm not getting service, I'm not getting the court system to react quickly enough.' And our council would be so quick to step up for those vendors and I'm like, "˜You have to allow the process to take its paces. It has to go through its paces. You can't speed anything up for anyone in particular. It doesn't matter, it just does not matter.' But yes, we have experienced in the past where because you had a number of tribal members defaulting on a lot of things, businesses begin then questioning, "˜Well, do I really want to do business with a Choctaw?' Not so much about the judicial process itself, but if I'm not going to be getting my money back or if I'm not going to get paid for whatever service I render, is it worth my time? Which is a much bigger question, but going back to insulating yourself, we as a judiciary, as many judiciaries, have canons of ethics and it depends on what those things mean to you. The legislative body as well as the executive body, unfortunately in our instance, don't have canons of ethics and...but those are to me things that are internal. You should have those types of ethics. You should know that it's not proper to go to the judge to say, "˜Change your decision.' It's not proper. You would feel...if there were clear lines of language that said, "˜No, you cannot approach the court,' then the atmosphere would be different. The atmosphere would be very different. Yes, there are tensions, there are questions, "˜Well, what's going to happen with the impact of this decision I've made? How is that going to affect possibly my appointment? Will I still be here in four years?' But if there were that...if there was the ability to have that happen where language could be developed and there were clear separations, you would be able to be in a position to judge more effectively without the fear of repercussion. You would. It's bad enough you have a lot of other things that you have weighing on you as a judge, to have that extra layer put on you and the sad thing is it's your own people, these legislative members are also your members, members of your community and of your tribe. I've heard one councilman tell me...he told me once, there was a case that was being dealt with and he was insistent on trying to get involved, to come in. And I said, "˜It's clear in the code, you can't stand as an advocate. It's clear in the code that you cannot post bond for this...bail for this individual.' And he would tell me real quick, "˜Well, out in this county I'm able to call the judge and da da da da da.' And I said, "˜Well, you know what, that's that court system, not here.' Needless to say, he wasn't my friend anymore, but that's the whole point of it. It's where your integrity lies and you have to. But again, it's also educating, educating the legislative body because of the evolution, the changes of a justice system, what justice systems mean, fairness and that, "˜No, you can't go and ex parte the judge.' It's about fairness and not so much about control. And that's the problem, it is an issue of control."

Ian Record:

"So the tribal code for Choctaw prohibits elected officials from, I guess, involving themselves in court cases in certain respects."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Yes, that's correct. If I as a tribal member would ask a councilman to come in to serve as an advocate or a speaker on their behalf of sorts, it's not allowed. They're not allowed to post bail or bond for anyone. It's right there in black and white, but they still continue to try to do that. I've always told my staff, the judges, when we look at the canons of ethics, "˜It's there to protect you so use it,' tell them that this is what the canons of ethics tell us in regards to appearance of impropriety, of political influence and things of that sort. That's what it's there for. And it's a struggle, it is a struggle and this is something that I know a lot of tribes face, a lot of judges face. It's a hard...it's a hard line to walk because again you are a member of the community, you do not have the ability to blend in with the general populace. It just doesn't happen. Like I said, for our tribe, we're a membership of almost 10,000. We have on the reservation over 6,500 people."

Ian Record:

"Do you think part of it, when elected leaders feel that impulse to interfere on behalf of a constituent, that they maybe haven't gone through the paces perhaps as you've termed it to think, "˜What's the long-term implication of my action here? Because I might be helping,' because that's their feeling, "˜I'm helping this person. I'm helping this person, but am I really helping the nation in the long run because this is going to be the ramifications of this. There's a ripple effect to what I'm doing.'"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Yes, and you're exactly right. I know in some instances their intentions are good, their intentions are good, they do want to help their constituent. They feel that someone needs to step up for them, someone needs to represent them, and maybe for whatever reason the different programs may not be able to help that particular individual, for instance, a vulnerable adult, an elderly person who may be being taken advantage of with his grandchildren taking the monthly check. And so I can see that, but when you don't allow the process to happen and if you don't follow the letter of the law, then the messages that it sends out is that, "˜Well, you can change the rules whenever you want,' and you can't do that. The rules are the rules for everyone, whether you're the community member, whether you're a member of the council, whether you're the chief, the rules are the rules. And although some people may think they might be able to change those rules; that's where the strength of your judiciary is the test not to allow those things to happen. I know within...in Indian Country those things happen where they're tested all the time. Like we talked earlier about jurisdictional issues, everyone is coming at you from different angles and let me tell you, being...living the life of a judge is not an easy thing. It's rewarding at times because you're providing a service to the people, the successes that you see make it worth all that you have to go through, but the political side of it can be at times very disheartening, very discouraging because you're having to deal with this mountain of things that are coming at you and you're trying to do the best you can do for your system. And sometimes people just don't see it the way you see it and it's trying to reach consensus with people, to get them on your side, get them to understand. Education, it's...it always goes back to education, teaching the membership, teaching the legislative body what these systems are all about and how important it is because at the end of the day that's going to be what makes you successful as a people, as a community. For me, it's always been my philosophy that tribal courts are the guardians of sovereignty. It's our job to make sure that we protect this sovereign through the well of the court, through this legal system and it's something that when you take on this judgeship, it's not about the notoriety, it's about what you provide, what you bring to the bench and the protection of the sovereign. That's the bottom line of all of this." 

NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow: Rae Nell Vaughn (Part 2)

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

Rae Nell Vaughn, former Chief Justice of the Mississippi Choctaw Supreme Court, shares how her nation methodically re-integrated Choctaw core values into its administration of justice, and how Mississippi Choctaw's creation of a fair and efficient justice system is paying social, cultural, political and economic dividends. 

Resource Type
Citation

Vaughn, Rae Nell. "NNI Indigenous Leadership Fellow (Part 2)." Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management, and Policy, University of Arizona. Tucson, Arizona. September 22, 2009. Interview.

Ian Record:

"So the term 'Choctaw self-determination' is the motto of pretty much everything that the Mississippi Choctaws do. And I was curious to learn from you: how exactly does the tribal justice system, the court system that you were for a long time a part of, a reflection of that motto 'Choctaw self determination'?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Self-determination, in and of itself, has been key for Mississippi Choctaw. It's been the driving force of who the tribe has ultimately become, this very progressive tribe providing so many different services and outlets for the people, but it's so much more than that. It comes down to the very individual Choctaw member as to how you guide the people individually towards their destiny of being a successful people. There have been a number of areas in which self-determination has been very evident, one being the court system in and of itself. Within the court system, there could have always been the easier way of just allowing the tribe to go with state rule actually and just using the state system. What's the point of setting up your own court system? But just the mere exercise of sovereignty and having the ability to create your own laws and to develop your own court system is the very essence of self-determination and within that allowing your tribal members themselves serving in different capacities as a judge, as a bailiff, as a law enforcement officer, even as an attorney again only further defines for tribes and this tribe in particular self-determination. It's the mere exercise and expression of it."

Ian Record:

"So back in 1997, the court system underwent a significant revamping and strengthening, and it came at a critical juncture where Mississippi Choctaw had grown tremendously since the "˜60s and early "˜70s, particularly with their economic development initiatives and had come to this point where it said, "˜If we want to continue growing, we've got to do this.' Can you talk a little bit about that, and are you of the opinion that Choctaw could not have become what it has today if it were not for this strong and independent court system?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"I think that the continuing development and evolution of the court system was key to every aspect of the tribe in regards to its development. The tribe in its forward thinking knew that with the growth of the population, which was very dramatic, it jumped significantly after 1994 once the gaming doors opened of our casinos and then we began generating more revenue and our population, the membership increased dramatically. Currently, we're at close to 10,000 members versus back in the early 19th century when we were less than 1,000, so it's been a very significant jump. And with the increase of population obviously comes with it social issues, social ills, offenses committed against property and people, civil matters, civil issues as the tribe in its economic growth begins venturing further into business, and those issues of litigation with those businesses ultimately will land within the well of this court. So because of that, it was key for -- and I believe was the government's vision -- to strengthen and provide to the court system the ability to execute justice properly and at a much higher standard. And again, the tribe could have just said, "˜Let's just follow the state motto. Let's just hire state judges and let's just go from there,' but they didn't. They knew again -- going back to self-determination -- how key it was to have tribal members sitting on that bench. Granted, the bench itself was very diverse. You had non-Indians, you had non-tribal members, and then of course tribal members sitting on this very large diverse bench, and the ability to have that exchange for those who weren't members of the tribe to teach them Choctaw customary law, culture, and of the people and of the community and the area, and how important and significant it is to just maintain that body of knowledge and it continues today, which I'm very grateful for."

Ian Record:

"So with respect to this, 1997 -- that seemed to be the watershed year in which the tribe made a very calculated decision to say, "˜In order to manage this growth, in order to continue to grow, we have to expand the powers, the jurisdiction and the authority of our court system, equip it with what it needs to be able to carry out justice,' as you say. So there's an expansion in terms of the types of cases it takes on, in terms of the kinds of skill sets that it's bringing into the court system, etcetera, but also during that time there was a concerted effort underway to more fully incorporate Choctaw values as you mentioned into the court system. Can you talk a little bit more about that and specifically discuss this project that you were involved with, which was documenting those core values in the form of oral histories provided by your elders? Maybe talk a little bit about how they've worked to inform the incorporation of those values into the court system."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"I believe that it was a lot of hands of fate that guided me into where I ultimately ended up serving as a judge, which I was very honored and humbled by being asked to do this. I worked in various areas within tribal government of the 23 years that I worked. I worked in the health area, in education and in the cultural center area, and all of these experiences, I believe, prepared me for that. So having said that, giving you that backdrop, once I got into the position as judge and ultimately serving as the principal judicial officer for the system, there were different projects that I felt would help us retain a lot of what we and who we are as tribal people in regards to what this thing was called, 'customary law.' Well, what is it? For the common person on the street looking at the general provisions of the codes, it's there, but what is it/. It wasn't tangible; it was an abstract thought, customary law. So how do we make that more concrete? And so with that I began looking at different models. Well, what's out there in Indian Country? What information has been generated and collected for the respective tribes? And I saw different models and I thought, "˜We can do this. We can do this here at Choctaw.'

And so we initiated what we call the Indigenous Law Project and this project basically...the original objectives of this project was to gather as much information from our elders concerning customary law, issues such as probate, disciplining of children, the structure of our society and how important -- being a matrilineal society -- those duties and responsibilities of individual members of the family and how important those things played in the role of the family, but not only the family, the community and the tribe as well. Now we weren't as fortunate as a number of the tribes west of the Mississippi to have been able to maintain and continue practices of traditional ceremonies and clan systems and things of that sort. However, there were few aspects that we continued to carry on that we needed to document. Now it goes against what normal translation would be in the sense of oral history, passing it down orally from one generation to another. Unfortunately, society has given us other opportunities with technology, unfortunately and fortunately, because the unfortunate thing is that we're not practicing this oral history, we're not sitting down and talking as a family. We're too busy texting one another half of the time. And so it seemed to me that the best thing to do is put the technology...benefit from this technology and use it. And so we initiated a number of interviews for, I believe, about three summers of just collecting interviews. And what I got away from the information or the exchange was how willing the elders were wanting to sit down and talk. Of course it was warming them up, putting them in front of a camera and the mic and all of this and of course we'd ham them up a little bit. "˜Well, you're going to be on TV,' and all of that. "˜You're the next movie star.' And so once they warmed up and you began asking questions, all of the outside distractions faded away and they went right into it and to be able to go back and pull all those memories and all of what they have been taught, that sense of pride of, "˜I'm proud of who I am and this is who...this is what I was taught and I'm so glad I'm able to teach you.' Now I did get my hand slapped at one point because I was asking my auntie, my great aunt, a question and she said, "˜You should know this.' I got put in my place real quick. "˜You should know this,' and as I sat there and I thought, of course I sat up a little straighter after she did that, but after I thought about it, I said, "˜Yeah, I do.' I had to go back and think because we weren't having that sit-down and we weren't having those opportunities without all the other distractions going on, of just sitting down and talking. And that's what we don't do anymore.

And so I say all that to say this: we got a wealth of just raw information, just conversations, and then...so what do we do with this? We begin extracting values out of each of these interviews and we're able to construct this circular...and we put it in a...we intentionally put it in a circular model because it's never ending. Our core values are never ending. And we developed about 12 core values and I can't think of each of them right now, but I do have that information, but it all centered around the family. It all centered around the family and one of the other objectives that I had...I had another project within the cultural center was, "˜Well, okay what do you do with information? How do you get this information across to the audience, the target audience you're shooting for here?' And so I looked at this project two-fold. One for the practitioner, the attorney that's coming into the court who may be arguing a child custody case and not understanding the matrilineal society rules as it were. And so there's a document that he can cite as he argues in court. Of course obviously -- if all things are equal with both parties -- society dictates...the tribe dictates traditionally that children would go into the custody of the mother. Discipline would continue with both sides, but the mother's brother, the uncle of the children also stepped in and took a role as well, whether it be a division... dissolving of a marriage or just within disciplining children. And so having that documented in a court opinion is very significant because it lays out for you customary law and it's there in black and white.

But the other objective, again two-fold, is how you use this information and we're always looking at... again, and it just... everything interweaves with one another, self-determination, and it's getting this information to the younger generation. "˜Well, how do we do that? How do you use this tool and where do you use it?' The most ideal place to use it was within the school system and we're fortunate enough to have a tribal school system. And so the next phase of this project was to develop a curriculum to incorporate this information into the school system starting at the very earliest level of elementary school, because you're in elementary school pledging allegiance to the flag -- to the [United States of America] flag. You're learning about presidents, you're learning about government, you're learning as you move along civics and your duty and responsibilities as a citizen of the United States of America, but what about your duties as a tribal member, talking about the importance of voting, the responsibilities of a leader, as chief, your council? Do you know exactly how many members are on your council? Do you know exactly how many and why there are three council members in one community versus only one in another? These are the things that need to go hand in hand with the instruction of state government, of local government and how state, federal and tribal all interplay with one another, and we don't have that, unfortunately, across the boards, across Indian Country really, you really don't have that. So my intention was using Indigenous law, this project, to relay what customary law is, but also incorporating information about government, tribal government, the judiciary. Because if you look at tribal government, Choctaw tribal government, we are so different from the U.S. government because we're a two-branch government. And, well, why is that? And then it goes into the IRA [Indian Reorganization Act] constitution, it just...it just dominoes in information. And that's what's key. And so that was one of the projects that I initiated there as well.

Another project I initiated, again, and it interweaves with self-determination is the internship program, which was very important for us because we were looking at...with every tribe you want to have as many tribal members in professional positions as possible. We're a membership of almost 10,000 and there's only so many Choctaws and not everybody wants to be a doctor, not everybody wants to be an attorney, not everybody wants to be an accountant, but you also needed to provide a place for career exploration to say, "˜Well, maybe I might not want to be a judge, but I might want to be a probation officer or I may want to be a paralegal or I may want to be an attorney or I may want to be a judge or I may want to be a court administrator,' but giving them that opportunity. So I set up this project during the summer and it was a three-tier project. It started with your...the high school students, your juniors and seniors. We partnered with Boys and Girls Club. They have a leadership component to it called 'Keystone Club' and we opened it up to those individuals if they were interested and then of course to just the general population of that age group if they were interested to come in.

And we also had the second tier, which were college students who may be interested, and of course opening it also up to law students just to have an opportunity to see Indian law in action at the local level. It was a 13-week project. I partnered with a program called Youth Opportunity Projects with the tribe, which helped us with funding because money's always an issue and kids need money for the summer. So that was an incentive. We also partnered with a number of universities, Millsaps College, Southern [University], Mississippi State [University], Bellhaven [University] for those students, Memphis State University. For those students who were coming in at the college level, I didn't want them to waste this experience, and if there was an opportunity to utilize the internship program for them as well to gain benefit, I welcomed that. But also it provided us this window of opportunity to educate even the colleges as well, and so it's been a really great thing to see this thing progress. We've hit some dips here and there. Again, not everybody is wanting to go into the legal field, but we've had a number...we had a really large number.

Two years ago, we had maybe about four individuals going through. And then the year that the Edgar Ray Killen case was ongoing -- that was that summer of the 40th anniversary I believe, if I'm not mistaken, of the slaying of the three civil rights workers. That was just so important and a part of their internship program was to go and sit in that hearing and listen to testimony and to see...to look across the well of this courtroom and to see a diverse jury sitting there of African-Americans, of just the members of the community, which you would never have seen 40 years ago, obviously not. And to listen to testimony and to hear what had happened during that time, for them it's just...it's history, but it's something that people of my generation...I was born in 1964 and the things that I experienced growing up in the South during that time, not knowing how much of an impact it was going to have on me later once I understood, "˜I'm being denied service.' And so I want the young people to understand how difficult it was for the tribe to move forward, to get to where they are. They had so many different obstacles. And again, all these projects -- the Indigenous Law Project, the internship program, teen court -- all of these different projects have recurring themes of, 'Remember where you've been, how important your role as a tribal member is to our society.'"

Ian Record:

"You mentioned teen court, which is what I was going to ask you about next, as well as some of the other initiatives that grew out of the 1997 reform and particular initiatives that incorporated consciously the Choctaw values that you've discussed. So tell us a little bit about teen court and specifically, why was it developed, how does the process work, perhaps how does it engage those young people and work to teach them the value of their role in moving the nation forward?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"It's very interesting how teen court developed because we were in pretty much temporary housing and we were very limited in regards to detention space and we were seeing more and more of our young people getting into trouble at various degrees of severity and some of them very minimal, but still required some type of sentencing of sorts. And we weren't making an impact simply because our young people have been desensitized. "˜So I'm going to go to jail, so what? I'll go do my time, I come out.' And then secondly, because we weren't able to house them on site, on the reservation, we were having to use outside facilities that made it even almost more enticing. "˜Hey, I got to go to Scott County and be with the really tough people,' and that type of mentality. And so we were struggling, we were struggling. And within the youth code, it said that using detention was the very last alternative, but that's all we were using and we needed to find some mechanisms of using other alternatives to help deter juvenile delinquency.

And we were looking at other models. I'm real big about "˜look at a model.' There's no sense in reinventing the wheel. If something is working somewhere else, let's pull it in and let's pull pieces out to see if we can 'Choctaw-ize' it as it were and make it our own. So we investigated a number of models of teen court, a diversion program, which gives the youth court the opportunity to of course allow the juvenile delinquent a sentencing, but it's more so by his peers. The way the process starts out is the juvenile delinquent is brought before the court, goes through adjudication. If the court finds the delinquent...the juvenile delinquent of the offense, then if the judge feels that this is an issue that can be handled in teen court, then the case is then transferred into teen court. Teen court is more of a sentencing court of the teen's peers. Also we have members of our teen community who come in and serve in different capacities, as prosecutor, as defense counsel, bailiff, members of the jury panel, but the only adult that's in there is the judge himself or herself -- I've served as a teen court judge -- and the diversion coordinator. Those are the only adults that are involved, as well as the party's parents who are coming in. And so they go through this process, the go through the hearing, the case is presented to the judge again, but the jury ultimately decides.

And it was very amazing to watch the process when we set up a mock hearing or it was even the actual hearing, the actual first hearing. We'd gone and done some training with them and gave them the tools of what they needed and then we had an actual case. Well, they came back with a very severe sentencing. I can't recall exactly what the offense was, maybe breaking and entering or something of that sort, but they were given multiple hours of community service, they were going to write this letter of apology, they wanted them to stand at the corner of an intersection and say, "˜This is my offense,' and everything. And so we had to kind of reel them back in and say, "˜Let's really think about this.' And so when we initiated it in early 2000, it was very slow going because it's like, "˜Oh, what is this? Do I want to be a part of this? Is this geeky or what?' But as it moved along, people got more involved in it and we had more young women who were involved in it and we were really pushing hard to recruit young men, and eventually it's grown now. I went to their banquet last month and they have a total of 80 active members of teen court.

One of the other components within the sentencing of the juvenile delinquent is that he or she is to also serve three terms within a setting so if during a semester that there's three cases, that individual has to come after he's completed what he has to do for his sentencing, he's got to get in there and serve as a juror too, which was initially done by design to get him on the right track, him or her, on the right track basically and get them involved in that process because I want young people to see the other side of the bench. I don't want them to be only...their only point of reference is standing in front of the bench. I want them to know what happens behind the bench and so again, giving them that opportunity. Do some of them take it, they do and then they just kind of...either they embrace it or they don't, just like with anything else. But it was always good to see when you had success stories in that regard, because we know nationally that normally children who enter into the youth court arena eventually move into the adult criminal court setting, and you try really hard to get them out of that track of sorts. And so that was an alternative that we looked at, "˜Well, what else can we do?' Because obviously traditional form of court was not working, the adversarial form of court was not working. They were getting desensitized. It wasn't having an impact. So what do we do? And that's one of the things under my leadership I continuously looked at, "˜What are other alternatives that we can look at to help curb a lot of the offenses that are going on within Indian Country to create healthy communities locally at Choctaw and across Indian Country and so several different programs began cropping up. One of them was Healing To Wellness which..."

Ian Record:

"I was just going to ask you about that."

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Yeah, which was just phenomenal for me because we have such a high rate of offenses that were committed under the influence of alcohol. So what do we do? All we were doing basically was having this revolving door of people just coming through, domestic violence cases, public drunk, DUIs, so many different things happening and we recognized it was revolving around alcohol abuse. And so what do we do? So we looked at this model, we applied for an implementation...planning grant and we went to a series of trainings and found that this model meshed with the core values of this tribe and we eventually were able to receive a grant to start us off for three years. That grant has no longer, now has ended and we're no longer under that funding source. However, we presented to the tribe once our three years was up, "˜This program has ended and we really want to continue it.' And that's one of the issues that tribes face all the time is sustainability. And so how do we sustain this?

Well, we were able to present to the tribe how successful it was and that we were able to hit all the benchmarks that we had proposed in the grant. And a lot of...because it's a multi-disciplinary approach where an individual may be a first offender of DUI or alcohol-related crime and the judge feels that this may be a case that's prime for Healing to Wellness and then we'll transfer that case over into that program. It's a year-long process, which means the individual has the opportunity to opt in or opt out with it if the judge wants to transfer this over because they may say, "˜Forget it, I know I'm not going to be able to do this, let me pay the fine, let me do my jail time and let me move on.' But then you have those people who are really ready for change or who may be at the crossroads of their life and say, "˜I do need help and I do want to change.'

And so the individual then enrolls into this program and they have a multi-disciplinary team that works with them on a weekly basis and they go through the rigors of the program itself. Yes, they're required to meet with their probation officer, they meet with a behavioral health person, the judge is also involved, the Healing to Wellness judge is also involved in this. So you've got about maybe six to seven people that come together once a week, they review cases and then they have all the individuals, it's a group effort where they all come in and they go over what was the expectation for the week, what they were supposed to do, did they accomplish those things and then if they didn't, there are penalties and you're not able to phase -- it's a four-phase project -- you're not able to phase out so it just takes longer for you to move through the program.

And at the end of it, I've gone to a number of graduations. It's always been very emotional for these people because they see where they were going and they now know and have the keys basically because for them if they were...if this was a really big issue for them, dealing with alcoholism that it was going to be a day-to-day process. And so having those relationships developed with people in behavioral health was going to be more key for them, but we also recognize that we would have to cut the tether and that they themselves were going to have to make good choices. And so it was really...it was a really good exercise for them and for us as professionals within this area and also as community members to see this happen, because you want success, you want them to be successful and you want them to have the success not only for themselves, but for their family as well, because you know that there's a lot of them that come from very dysfunctional homes and they're the primary person who's bringing the income in and how important it is too, if not for yourself for your family, as well."

Ian Record:

"So these sorts of initiatives, the Healing to Wellness court, the teen court -- those are directly geared towards restoring health within the community and then there's the challenge of handling all of your relationships with outsiders that particularly grow out of economic development and all the commerce that involves outside entities, whether they're vendors, whether they're employees who are non-tribal who live off the reservation, whatever it might be. So when you guys really moved forward full bore with your economic development you had to be ready. And so you've put in several rules, policies, institutions within the court system, within tribal government to ensure that your justice is prepared for that challenge to meet the growth, the challenge of managing that growth. And I wanted to have you talk about a few of those and first off are a couple of things internal to the court system itself and that is the qualifications of judges. Can you talk about the qualifications that are mandated in the Choctaw tribal code for judges, how they're selected, approved, removed, and what sort of requirements do they need to be able to sit on the bench?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Well, the process itself, this...the judgeships are appointed positions. They are nominated by the leadership, by the chief, presented to the tribal council, the council then confirms them, but you have a list of qualifications that helps you filter through those individuals who may be interested or who you feel that might be qualified and able to sit on the bench. There's an age requirement, 35. So that tells you I'm over 35. You have to have a minimum of two years of college, a tribal member, which is key. One of the other requirements that -- because we had to have on the bench law-trained judges -- was that the chief has the ability to waive the membership. And so that's how we were able to have non-tribal members sit as well as non-Indians sit so that we could be able to provide, again to be able to handle the types of cases, the complex cases that would be coming in in regards to commercial law and civil jurisdictional issues on this bench. And so we were able to strengthen our civil division to be able to handle the types of cases that we anticipated coming before this court.

Another thing that the court did or the council did as well, which was earlier on in the mid to late "˜80s, was incorporate a canon of ethics. Initially that was set up primarily for the judges. And again, I think at that time it was more of setting the code up, "˜So let's get some models,' and so there never really was any deviation from the ABA's [American Bar Association's] canons of ethics. So they're pretty straightforward and mirror exactly what ABA states as well. Back in, I believe it was early 2000 or the late "˜90s, because the...no, it was the early-2000s era, because our system was growing, our staff was growing from a staff of prior to reorganization of maybe five to six people to now a staff of 32 people -- 12 members on the bench and support staff -- we felt that it was very important for them to also understand what it was to serve as a judicial officer and that they too needed canons of ethics to follow as well, although those should be inherent as just being people of the court and understanding why we're there, but we felt that they too were a part of this larger system of justice and needed to also have these canons as well. And we also shared with them, "˜It's not to hinder you. It's to also protect you because you will have other forces coming at you,' and so, "˜No, I can't. That violates my canons of ethics.' There you go, it's a shield. And so we incorporated and put that through the process of review with the Judicial Affairs Committee, which is the legislative oversight of the system and eventually brought it before the full council for approval and it was approved. There continues to be challenges because of where we sit within the organization of government, serving as a statutory court. Well, then you also are bound by your administrative personnel policies and that lack of understanding. Well, there are these things called canons of ethics and it's like this, what do we do with it kind of thing. We haven't really had any violations of canons of ethics on the judicial side of it, so we have not ever initiated any kind of mechanisms of removal, but the code is clear. If there are clear violations of the canons of ethics, that is grounds for removal and there is a process within the code, but beyond the language within the code, there isn't actually step-by-step processes, which was, as you know, there's a long laundry list of things to do and you just can't get to all of them. And so that was one of the other things that needed to be looked at. Well, you have this body of law, but there are no processes to...once the mechanism is triggered, what do you do? And so that was one of the other areas that needed to be worked on and hopefully they will at some point get back to that."

Ian Record:

"So there's this issue of the court ensuring its own integrity, essentially building those shields against either corruptive behavior, self-interested behavior -- whatever it might be -- and then there's this issue of, "˜Well, how do we help to neutralize any political impulses that may come from outside forces to actually interfere in the court's jurisprudence?' And so, specifically, there's a couple things that have been put in place to help mitigate against those impulses specific to the council and any behavior they may exhibit. So there's a couple things that you guys have put in place. Can you talk about those things? How has Choctaw worked to try to control any sort of political interference from the outside?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Well, even you as a judicial officer get inundated with a lot of ex parte[communications]. As I shared with you earlier in our conversation, as a judge you don't have the ability to just blend into the general populace; you can't. You've got people you see at the grocery store, at the post office, down the street at the gas station while you're pumping gas for your car and then someone will come up and say, "˜Hey, this is what's going on. Can you help me?' Or you have families that are in crisis and the only thing as a judge you can say is, "˜I can't help you, you need to get an attorney, you need to get advice from an attorney.' And that's one level, but then there's the other level of when you have tribal council crossing the line and wanting to apply pressure at making changes of decisions or in regards to possibly constituents in incarceration and things of that sort.

And I want to believe that council members are coming with good intentions. It may be the man who is the only person that works in this family of five and he's gotten picked up and he's got to serve 30 days in jail, which means the possibility of his...of losing his job is great, which means there will be no income coming in and so you have the councilman that is saying, "˜Can you reconsider, can you make this change?' And so I want to...all of these issues put it in the light of they're really looking at the best interest of the constituent. That may not be so, I also recognize that as well, and the code is clear in regards to tribal council members. They're not allowed to come into court and practice as an advocate. They cannot come and represent a tribal member within court. Just the mere presence -- and that was hard for them to understand -- because just the fact that you're sitting in the well of that court can be perceived as applying pressure on a judge because the judge is not naí¯ve; he knows why you're there. You don't come to court every day to sit and watch tribal court in action simply because you don't have anything to do. And so just the appearance of it really would...the messages are sent. And so having that in place, as well as not allowing council members to sign bond or post bond and bail for individuals in incarceration was also another body of law that they put into place. That was really hard for them to understand, that you can't...you're just not allowed to..."˜I can't accept your money,' you're just not allowed to do that. And what it also provided was this means of insulating the two bodies, the judicial body and the legislative body, from that appearance of impropriety. It's a hard call because you're shifting, your code and your law is shifting in such a way that you have all these very specific things and it's like, "˜Why can't I do this? I'm trying to help the people.' And the unfortunate thing is that you may be doing a disservice for them by not allowing them to pay the price, the consequences of their actions because it's obviously detrimental, possibly if this is a habitual person who are not making change. They need to go through the process; maybe we get them into Healing to Wellness.

There are just...you've got to allow the process to take place, you can't interfere with process because that's the entire premise of this sovereignty, is allowing process to take place to allow us to interpret law and to perform and to render decisions. And if you're not happy, another thing that we also put into place was strengthening the supreme court, because initially it was set up as a court of appeals with the lower court judges serving as the reviewers of the case minus the division that the case came out of and it didn't quite work well. And so because of all this growth and the economic development, the population and everything, the idea was, "˜There needs to be a higher tier of court totally separate from the lower court.' Has it worked? It has worked. Has it had problems? Yes, it has had problems because we're still trying to figure out the role of the chief justice because even internally that role of the chief justice, which I struggled with every day, was the fact that I served as the principal judicial officer. I had two roles: I was the judicial officer, the chief justice for the supreme court, but I also was the court administrator over all of this system. And so you had issues of conflict at times whereas, okay, there's a complaint coming in from a judge on a particular case; procedurally, as their supervisor, administratively, I would receive these complaints. And so we had to look at another means of getting this information around so that someone else can be a reviewer, but then as a supervisor how can I get in there and evaluate performance if...you might have a judge that just sits there and sleeps through the entire session and then just drops the hammer and says, "˜Guilty!' And so how do you do that? And it was a constant struggle. We looked at a number of models, and the unfortunate thing is we weren't ever able to execute a way that I could administer fairly without that appearance of becoming involved in cases that had the potential of moving into the supreme court and that continues to be a struggle because you certainly -- and again, I'm real bad about talking out of both sides of the mouth -- you certainly don't want to have a rule for everything. You've got to be able to use some judicial discretion in judgment."

Ian Record:

"So there's this challenge internally of building a strong and independent court system, demonstrating it in practice, and then there's the further challenge of having to serve as an advocate for that system and go out and actually educate not only your own community but outsiders to say, "˜Hey, you need to take us seriously. We're a strong and independent court system. We can provide fair and effective justice to not only our own members, but outsiders as well.' You and your colleagues within the court system have made a concerted effort over the years to advocate for the court system, to build those relationships with outside entities, intergovernmental relationships that have really served the tribe and the court system very well. Can you talk about some of those?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Yes, that's always a challenge when you're having to lobby for the court. It's a juggling act because again, it's that relationship and you're presenting to your council who approves your budget of the activities of the court, the increases of the docket and, "˜Well, why do you need this much money? All you're doing is sitting there and providing justice.' Well, it's so much more than that with operations and looking at other alternatives and means to provide wellness to the community. Going to the area of education, that is what is key because people don't understand the system and it's a very...it's not a difficult system, but it is a tedious system because you have to go just...my question always is, "˜What happens when the paper hits the window of the court? Where does it go because that is not only paper, that's a party, that is a person, that is an issue that is happening out in the community. What happens to it? Where does it go?' And it goes through so many different steps and council members, the legislative body, just really doesn't understand why it takes..."˜Why does it take so long? Why does it take so long to get the case before the judge?' And so it's educating them. We initiated a symposium back in 2001 and we had tried to do this on an annual basis for our practitioners, but also for the general public to understand Choctaw justice, the judicial system and the legal community itself and to help them navigate through it and to also bring to them very specific issues such as issues of gaming, the latest cases that are coming before the Supreme Court, where they are and the impacts they may have on us individually as tribes. We also looked at a topic of economic development and the importance of having our practitioners prepared for maybe minimal cases in the sense of you may have a salesman coming through the tribe selling his wares and for whatever reason it doesn't work out and it ends up landing in court, all this commercial information. And then also, whenever we had new laws that were put into place, this was the forum to get that information out and also for them to have their bar meeting. No, it's not a very large bar, but we also wanted to keep in touch with them to let them know what was happening because as an attorney you're going through the daily rigors of it and it's pretty...it's the same stuff over and over basically of what they're dealing with and so it's just preparing them for whatever may pop up and then when you least expect it, it happens, a membership issue, possibly a challenge -- things of that sort. And we also provide for the council an opportunity to have a summit to sit down and talk with them during the session of things that they may want to...and this is more in closed doors so that...I've always believed if we've got issues that we have to deal with that, let's deal with it here at home because we certainly don't need it out in the public. One, there in the community because then it questions the trust of the system, but two, out in greater society because then it really may reflect a negative connotation of this thing called 'justice' on the reservation. And so if there are issues or problems, let's hammer it out here, let me know what may be an issue or problem and also we can also reciprocate with that and share with you what some of the challenges that we may be facing. For example, as we talked earlier, this issue of ex parte [communications] or trying to get to the judge to make changes and how important our integrity as a court system needs to remain intact. And so we were fortunate to be able to have those communications, but even more so that we were able to reach out beyond our own jurisdiction to the jurisdiction of the state and that was one of the very key things that happened during my tenure with this court was the ability to open that door with the Supreme Court for the State of Mississippi.

I had this visit where Chief Justice Jim Smith and his associate Jim Waller, Jr. came down and they wanted to have a conversation. And we sat down and we talked and I shared with them what our system was all about and we...and that's what initially began the conversation and then he invited me to come in and talk with a group of municipal judges at their annual association and then we invited him to our symposium to serve as our guest speaker. We also invited the state attorney general to come in and serve as a speaker and so we've been able to have that give and take and I've always believed...it's like, "˜Well, why didn't it happen earlier? Why didn't it happen way before my time?' But I truly believe it's time and place that really plays a key role and we were both open to having this dialogue. What else has spun from that, on the federal side we're able to have...because of relationship building more so with the leadership and at the federal level we have the ability -- which we may have already talked about earlier -- having a U.S. District attorney come to the tribe and office with us one day a week to handle cases that may be going through the federal system, which is unheard of. You don't have that across Indian Country if...I'm sure it's very few, if any, that have that ability to have a U.S. District attorney come in on the reservation and sit. We also have a U.S. probation officer that comes in as well. And again, that was developing relationships, [intergovernmental] relationships."

Ian Record:

"And don't those have really powerful benefits in terms of understanding because you have these outside entities that for many tribes have long interfered with tribal justice systems and now they're -- instead of being adversary or a constant source of irritation or interference -- they're now potentially an ally, or at least saying, "˜We recognize your authority, we recognize your competence,' etc.?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"Exactly and I believe that is, that's the clear message that it sends and that we are all partners now in this. And also we've experienced the same type of relationship building with the county system as well. We had two tribal members who had an issue in county court and the judge picks up the phone, and it was an issue he felt that could be handled in our peacemaking court and he says, "˜You know, I think that you could better deal with this than I can,' and he transferred a case out of county court to tribal court. And I don't...it never...for some people they just never really wrapped their mind around that, and I'm like, "˜Can you believe that even happened?' That was just something that was just really, to me it was historic, it was something you just don't...you wouldn't even think it could happen and it happened. But again, it goes back to that...the thinking that this is a stable system, this is a court system of integrity. You will receive fairness in this system. Some people may not agree with the system all the time, but they know they got a fair shot in there. And so if anything that's the clear message."

Ian Record:

"I want to wrap up with a quote from former Chief Phillip Martin and he made this statement a few years back. He was delivering, I believe, delivering a talk at Harvard and he was asked by a student, "˜Are you at all concerned that all the economic growth you've experienced has had a negative impact on your culture?' And he said -- he thought for a second -- then he said, "˜I don't know. It used to be everyone was leaving and now they're coming home.' And really what he was talking about was through this economic growth we've had an opportunity to create stability and to bring opportunities to our people. Can you comment on his statement and perhaps address specifically the role of the justice system in creating that environment of stability and opportunity?"

Rae Nell Vaughn:

"With the dramatic growth, you have your members coming back in, but how does this relate to the system, to the justice system? Twenty years ago, you would never have...I would never have had the opportunity to come as a tribal member and sit in a position of authority to assist our people in regards to justice. It may not have ever happened. I completed my college education. I could have easily left, but I chose not to; I chose to stay and become a servant of the tribe and to provide that service to them. And had the landscape not been such where I could have had that opportunity, it wouldn't have happened. Where would we have been had things not taken place, we probably would not have moved mountains as we have now. And so it just sounds so much like Chief Phillip Martin. "˜Yeah, they're coming back, they're not leaving anymore.' And if anything it strengthens who we are as a people. And we have so many talented people and now there's an opportunity to show that talent, for them to step up and take on these roles of leadership in different capacities. Not just the ultimate leadership but leadership within your community, leadership within the work that you're doing, leadership even within the State of Mississippi coming in as an entrepreneur, bringing employment and economic diversity to not only the tribe and the state. So yeah, they're not leaving, they're coming back and there's something to come back to and that's home."

Ian Record:

"Well, great Rae Nell. I really thank you for your time. It's been quite an education. That's it for today's program of Leading Native Nations. To learn more about Leading Native Nations, please visit nni.arizona.edu. Until next time, I'm Ian Record. Thank you for joining us. Copyright 2009 Arizona Board of Regents." 

Joan Timeche: The Two Tests a Constitution Must Pass (Presentation Highlight)

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

In this highlight from the presentation "The Diversity of Governing Systems and Constitutions in Indian Country," NNI's Joan Timeche explains the two tests (cultural legitimacy and effectiveness) that Native nation constitutions must pass if they are going to prove capable of achieving their nations' strategic priorities.

People
Native Nations
Resource Type
Citation

Timeche, Joan. "The Two Tests a Constitution Must Pass (Presentation Highlight)." Tribal Constitutions seminar. Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management and Policy, University of Arizona. Tucson, Arizona. April 3, 2013. Presentation highlight.

"As you look through your constitution, no matter how diverse it is, it has to pass two tests -- the legitimacy test and the effectiveness test. And that first one is what causes a lot of turmoil oftentimes in our communities. Do the people believe this way of governing is appropriate for them and do they see that system as theirs? Or do they see it as the BIA's [Bureau of Indian Affairs's] or the Department of Interior's because the IRA [Indian Reorganization Act] was forced upon us? Is that constitution yours? Do people say, 'Yes, this is the way we make decisions. This is what's important to us. This is how we make rules. These are our rules.'

And the second one is the effectiveness. Can it deliver on getting the job done to meet your needs and your goals? Those are what's going to be important or does it always...does it become a big bureaucracy, do you get hung up on things, is the system...or maybe there's no rules in there or maybe there are rules there but they're not enforced. So you have to make sure that your constitution can meet these two tests. And we're not saying that any one form of government is best, because you're going to have to make that determination of what's best for you and your people, but it should be the one that solves your governance challenges. It's the one that's going to promote your interests, it's going to be the one that's going to hold you together, and then it's the one that's going to match your current culture today. 'Cause we're never going to go back to what we were 50, 100, 200 years ago, but we still probably have threads of how we make decisions that are still culturally relevant. So what is that today? And you just have to figure out what's the best way for our nation." 

Honoring Nations: JoAnn Chase: Cultural Affairs

Producer
Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development
Year

JoAnn Chase reports back to her fellow Honoring Nations sympoisum participants about the consensus she and her fellow cultural affairs breakout session participants reached concerning the need for Native nations to fully integrate culture into how they govern, and also to ensure that their governance activities strengthen their cultures.

People
Native Nations
Resource Type
Citation

Chase, JoAnn. "Cultural Affairs." Honoring Nations symposium. Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. Sante Fe, New Mexico. February 9, 2002. Presentation.

JoAnn Chase:

"Good afternoon everybody. As Heather [Kendall-Miller] helps put some of the notes from today's discussion that we had up there, I couldn't help but just look outside and see the beautiful blue skies today and another gorgeous day in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and just really give thanks for the opportunity to come together and meet together and gain from and learn with one another and exchange knowledge base and we thank you for the food that we have and for each other. So that may be a really appropriate way to start off our report on some of the really vibrant and terrific discussion that we had about cultural affairs programs.

We came to a simple bottom line, and I think it almost summarizes the whole extent of our discussion, which is that as we talk about building successful Indian nations, we cannot build Indian nations without a strong comprehensive fully integrated cultural component. And so the discussion, we actually engaged in some detailed discussion, but citing some examples just to the Honoring Nations of really driven cultural programs that are models for us to look at. The Ojibwe language program, for example, at the Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe; the Elders Advisory Council for the San Carlos [Apache] Tribe; the Navajo Nation Archaeology Department at Navajo Nation; the Poeh Cultural Center for Pojoaque [Pueblo] that some of us will have the privilege of visiting today; the Navajo Studies Division at Navajo Nation are just among some of the examples of really terrific things that are being done.

Lots of our discussion actually centered around language, and language preservation being such a key component of who we are as Indian people. And somebody I think summarized it so appropriately that said, 'Without language we don't have culture,' and yet we face the challenge in so many of our communities of losing those languages. So how do we break down some of those internal barriers that exist? How do we break through some of the imposed structures that are upon us? We can't just rely on our school systems. Our school systems don't necessarily serve our families. What kinds of creative thinking can we do, and think beyond those imposed structures that we have had to exist under, so that we can in fact have language programs that involve intergenerational components and that involve our families collectively? Much of the discussion was also around it is so important to involve the entire family in the language process.

We talked about some ways of just preserving and protecting and maintaining language including taking the initiative to control our own schools, to make our own laws. Somebody in our group said that their tribe actually had...was [unintelligible]. I believe it was Marge Anderson at Mille Lacs that, in order to graduate from the school system, one had to have proficiency in the language and demonstrate fluency. With that bold move by the tribe and certainly then the program to support that so that that can happen. Involving speakers with the very young, we mentioned that; promoting pride in being Native and using the Native language. There was an example of a group of young people who, first graders who stepped out and sang songs in their own language and actually integrated some Western culture with some sort of rap overtones. And we asked Chairwoman Anderson to demonstrate for us. She refused to do that, but nonetheless, the point I think was so well taken that the language itself instills the pride and is such an important component of maintaining that pride and that the young people, the transformation, as they became more proficient in the language was so apparent the way they held themselves, the way they communicated, the brightness in their eyes and just the general happiness with who they are, which clearly related to their ability to speak the language. We know that's so tremendously important in maintaining our cultures.

We talked basically about strategizing to reach out to families, again breaking down some of those boundaries that exist and thinking creatively. After-school programs, evening programs, weekend programs so that we are indeed involving our families, concentrating on some of the internal mechanisms within tribes.

We talked about thinking beyond basic boundaries and we know that there's some wonderful programs out there. We have relatives that boundaries that exist have been imposed upon us and recognizing that they've been imposed, thinking beyond them, reaching to our relatives in Canada, reaching to our relatives in Mexico, looking outside again in supporting and exchanging our culture. Again, integrating those aspects of our culture into the...a comprehensive approach to building nations.

Let's see if I'm missing things here. We talked so much about language and why it was important. Then we actually then transitioned to some really important conversation about economics and we know that there are so many economic challenges for tribes. In fact, so much of this program about nation building is concentrated on engaging in initiatives and tribes being forced to sometimes make some difficult decisions about economic initiatives so that they actually can continue to build the nation. And the importance of recognizing that culture may not immediately...incorporating components of culture into a comprehensive nation-building strategy may not have immediate quantitative economic returns, but that certainly there are many, many returns that through a qualitative analysis bring tenfold back to the tribe and that, importantly, that if we look over the longer term of economic analysis we do see that cultural components built into nation building, in fact, do have economic returns, and encouraging that kind of thinking so that we aren't forced into decisions of we're not going to support the culture because we don't see the dollars immediately. These cultural components are a drain on our economic development initiatives. Clearly we know that that's not to be true and to continue to take measures that defy some of those thinking that we know really are conclusions that in the long run prove not to be true at all.

We talked about things like bringing artists together, thinking again creatively, reaching outside of our communities, involving, as I said, intergenerational components between elders and youth and so on. And then we talked a little bit about tribal politics and the necessity of getting tribal leaders involved and committed to cultural programs and recognizing of course that tribal leaders certainly have...are pulled in so many directions these days -- they need to be in Washington, they need to be working with state legislatures and so on -- but that, indeed, if they are not committed to the cultural programs and cultural adaptations that there is a real shortcoming in the kind of leadership that they're providing to the tribe. Basically it came down to walk the talk. There's some danger in a lot of rhetoric among particularly tribal governmental elected officials of supporting culture but not necessarily taking the appropriate actions to support that culture. Again bold steps like promulgating laws that incorporate culture into the overall development of our nations is clearly important. And so there was some very provocative discussion around that, making sure that we hold tribal leaders accountable to the kind of rhetoric and at the same time making sure that we do take the measures that we can to ensure that our elected officials are engaging and participating and supporting necessarily various cultural initiatives.

We talked a little bit about tourism and involving outside communities in our cultural affairs and how that can be creatively done. Of course we know that there may be some dangers, we've seen some of our initiatives taken from us, exploited, exported in ways that aren't healthy to us, but indeed, with careful thought there are some wonderful things that can happen so that not only are we building the culture within, but that we're also contributing to the broader fabric of society as well. Some strategies: we talked about using crisis to our advantage to teach and to pull in culture. It's that which sustains us to get us through those difficult times and we know that there's a lot of crisis in Indian Country so reaching to those foundations that keep us strong. Be opportunistic and look for opportunities to interject ideas and principles that come from culture, taking advantage of the situation, seizing the initiatives. Create formal roles for cultural leaders that bring their advice and ideas to the forefront. We mentioned the San Carlos [Apache] Elders Council as a perfect example of that and obviously they play a tremendously important role in the tribe. Funding, staffing, equipment and training for cultural centers, because clearly there's a service to those communities and we know that we need to be aggressive in seeking ways that we actually are able to provide funding and staffing and equipment. Those seem to be challenges for us all of us in so many programs but we must continue to pursue ways to actually ensure that there is that kind of training, there is the kind of equipment, there is the support necessary.

I think that's predominately the essences of the conversations that we had and I can say one more time, all those wonderful points and strategies really boil down to one main point and that is that we cannot build Indian nations without a very strong, a very comprehensive and a wholly integrated cultural component."

Honoring Nations: Stephen Cornell: Achieving Good Governance: Lessons from the Harvard Project & Honoring Nations

Producer
Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development
Year

Co-director of the Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development Stephen Cornell offers a review of how the Honoring Nations program evolved out of the nation-building movement and successes among Native nations.

Native Nations
Resource Type
Citation

Cornell, Stephen. "Achieving Good Governance: Lessons from the Harvard Project & Honoring Nations." Honoring Nations symposium. Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. Sante Fe, New Mexico. February 8, 2002. Presentation.

Andrew Lee:

"Now I'd like to turn the microphone over to Professor Steve Cornell, the co-founder of the Harvard Project and the current Director of the Udall Center for Studies in Public Policy at the University of Arizona. And the talk that he's going to talk about is 'Achieving Good Governance: Lessons from the Harvard Project and the Honoring Nations Awards Program."

Stephen Cornell:

"Thank you very much, Andrew. It's really a great pleasure to be here and to join Chief [Oren] Lyons and the other members of the board of the Honoring Nations Program, to join all of you who have come to attend this symposium, and in particular to be here with representatives of these award-winning programs. I have to tell you that when Joe Kalt and I started the Harvard Project 15 years ago, we had no idea of where it was going to lead. And I find myself astonished and humbled and thrilled by what has developed over the years, thanks to the efforts of an enormous number of people from what, in our own minds, I think, were very modest beginnings.

We're here this morning to talk about good governance in Indian Country and to hear from Indian nations who are making government work. Before we get very deeply into that we thought it would be useful to review how we got here. Where did this program come from? In fact, why even have a program called 'Honoring Contributions in the Governance of American Indian Nations'? My job this morning is to say something about why good governance is something that should be honored and achieved in Indian Country and in doing so, to tell you something about the origins of this program. So I want you to...I want to take you back 15 years to Harvard University in the mid-1980s. A couple of nerd academics, Joe Kalt and me, are sitting around puzzling over something.

If you looked around Indian Country in the 1980s, one of the things that would have struck you rather powerfully is this. For whatever reason, some Indigenous nations in this country were doing much better than others economically. For example, on the one hand, you had Cochiti Pueblo with an unemployment rate between 10 and 20 percent in late 1980s. On the other hand, you have the Pine Ridge Sioux Reservation in South Dakota with Oglala Sioux Tribe at unemployment rates probably over 90 percent unemployment. On the one hand you have the Crow Tribe of Montana rolling in natural resources -- from coal to grazing to water to timber -- but locked in poverty, unable to turn all that wealth of material into viable tribal enterprises and to improve the welfare for their people. And on the other hand, you have the White Mountain Apache Tribe in Arizona that was running the most productive saw mill -- Indian or non-Indian -- in the western United States, a profitable commercial hunting operation, a profitable skiing operation and assorted other tribal enterprises. On the one hand, you have the Northern Cheyenne Tribe with an economy generating almost no dollars at all other than those that came in through federal transfer payments, just about the ultimate in economic dependency. And on the other hand you have the Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, who were starting to import non-Indian labor because they were creating so many jobs there weren't enough Choctaws to fill them. So you have black and white workers driving onto Choctaw lands every day to take jobs in Choctaw-owned and -operated enterprises.

We could give you other examples, which offer stark differences between on the one hand, nations often characterized by deep poverty, frustration, hopelessness, on the other hand, nations that were seizing control of their future, were building sustainable economies, were reshaping their futures to meet their own designs. And bear in mind, this is before the impact of gaming. We weren't yet seeing what that was going to do in Indian Country. These were enterprises that had nothing to do with that. These were nations, which in a very difficult time were in essence saying, 'We're going to reshape the future to meet our designs,' and they were doing it. What was it we wondered that determined which path any given nation took? Why does one nation move forward, another seems to run in place or slip backward? How would we account for these differences? And the Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development was born out of those questions.

We approached Norm Collins at the Ford Foundation and told him we wanted to try to find out the answers to these questions, not just because we were inquisitive nerd academics -- sure, we found these questions kind of interesting -- but because we were convinced that the answers to these kinds of questions might be useful to all of Indian Country and maybe beyond Indian Country. Maybe Indian Country was doing things that the rest of the world ought to be paying attention to, because the real question lying behind all of this has to do with the keys to successful nations, nations that control their own affairs, improve the welfare of their people and take care of the things that they most value in their lives. Well, Norm Collins agreed and the major work of the Harvard Project got under way.

What did we do over the next few years? Accumulating colleagues, Manley Begay who joined us first and is still here and now direct the Native Nations Institute at the University of Arizona, and eventually a host of others. We went around talking to Indian nations trying to understand what were they doing, what was working, why was it working, what could we learn from it, what could other nations learn from what was happening in Indian Country? Now of course we weren't the first ones to ask this question. The basic question was why? Why are some doing better than others? There were other answers out there. A lot of people thought they knew why. Nations with lots of natural resources would be doing better than those without. Nations with good education would be doing better than those without. Geographic location would matter, capital would matter, etc. As we talked to people and we began to look at this data, it turned out that while some of these things were important -- sure, you'd rather have good resources than not and good education than not -- and in fact, they didn't do a very good job of explaining the pattern of development that we saw out there.

We saw tribes with great natural resources and high education that were doing poorly. We saw tribes such as Mississippi Choctaw with no significant natural resources to speak of and below average education for Indian Country that were doing wonderfully well. We saw tribes with strong leaders who were in trouble and tribes where the leadership turned over every year like Cochiti Pueblo who were doing very well indeed. So it was clear that these things helped. It was also clear that they weren't the keys to economic development. They didn't in and of themselves lead to sustainable, self-determined economic development in Indian Country. So what did those keys turn out to be? I'm going to point to five of them that emerged from our research. In some ways this has become what my colleague Joe Kalt describes as the Harvard Project mantra.

The keys to economic development in Indian country, based on 15 years now of work with Indian nations. First, sovereignty matters. Indian nations have to be in the driver's seat if we're going to see sustainable community and economic development in Indian Country. Why do they have to be in the driver's seat? It puts the economic development and community development agenda in Indian hands. It links decisions and their consequences -- those who are making the decisions reap the benefits of those decisions and pay the price when they make bad decisions. We cannot find a case in all these years of sustained economic development in Indian Country where someone other than the Indigenous nation is calling the shots, determining how resources are used, determining strategic direction, shaping the internal affairs of the nation, controlling its relationships with other governments. If you think about that, it's got a pretty potent policy message. In a century of federal efforts to end reservation poverty, it turns out that self-determination is the only federal policy to have a sustained impact in Indian Country, a sustained impact on poverty. The evidence from our research is tribal sovereignty is the only anti-poverty program that works. That's a very positive thing to say from the view of Indian Country but it's based on research. We can show you the data.

Second though, it turns out sovereignty isn't the only thing that matters. Being in the driver's seat isn't enough to create sustainable, self-determined, economic development. You've got to be able to get where you want to go. What does this include? It includes basic issues and concepts of good government. It means stability in government. Not stability in the people who are governing, stability in the rules by which they govern. It means getting politics out of business management. It means having courts or other dispute resolution mechanisms that are depoliticized where how you're treated doesn't depend on who you are, who your relatives are, who you voted for and so forth. It means having a bureaucracy that can get things done. What happens when you do these things? You create an environment in which individuals, tribal members, and others want to invest time, energy, ideas, money, their talent. What this does is it pulls in talent; it reduces the brain drain. It encourages young people to stay and others to come home. It focuses your human resources not on fighting over the pie, the economic pie, but in making it bigger and on designing it to meet the real needs of the people.

So the first two keys were sovereignty and good governing institutions. The third key we came up with, culture matters. It turns out that the most successful governing institutions that we see across Indian Country have found ways to work with Indigenous conceptions of how authority ought to be organized and exercised. They don't just pull institutions off the shelf that someone else invented or that the federal government came up and said, 'Here's what you need to govern yourselves.' They looked to their own traditions and retooled those traditions to meet the current contemporary demands and in doing so made those institutions win the support of their people. It's no accident that two of the most successful tribes in the group that we've worked with and studied have radically different governing institutions. Cochiti Pueblo where the spiritual leaders are the ultimate authority in the tribe and Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes of the Flathead Reservation whose governing institutions look like they came out of my high school civics textbook. They're both wonderfully successful because they found institutions that are their institutions that resonate with their people.

Fourth, it turns out a strategic orientation matters. We all know how tough it is to govern in Indian Country, the pressures on tribal leadership, the crises that come up, the obstacles thrown in your path by the federal government and others. But that strategy that is just band-aids and firefighting and opportunism turns out to be far less effective than a long-term strategy that asks what kind of society are we trying to build, what is it we're trying to protect, what are we trying to change, what do we want to preserve and then makes contemporary immediate decisions in the context of those ideas.

And finally, yes, turns out, leadership matters. But it's not just a question of picking the right men or women to fill particular positions in government. It's really about finding those individuals or groups who are willing to take responsibility for the future of the nation, who are willing to break with established ways of doing things, have a vision for the future, understand what kind of change is necessary to realize that vision. And what we found is that that kind of leadership can be found in all kinds of places, not just among elected officials. You might find it in one village. You might find it happening in your schools. You might find it happening in an enterprise, in a program, on the council. Leadership it turns out has more to do with what you do than with what position you're in.

So what did we conclude? Other assets are helpful but when Indian nations are in the driver's seat, when they effective and culturally appropriate governing institutions, when they make decisions for the long run, when they have leadership that is less interested in distributing goodies than in rebuilding the nation, then other assets, the things we started out wondering what part they played, then those assets begin to pay off. In other words -- and Andrew already said this -- successful Indian nations assert their sovereign powers, build effective governing institutions that match their cultures, identify strategic objectives, and support the leadership that is willing and able to get them there.

Those are the lessons of the Harvard Project and the objectives of the Honoring Nation program really reflect those findings. Its purpose is to identify, recognize and celebrate examples of good governance in Indian Country. That's why the program's not called 'Honoring Contributions in Social Programs' or 'Honoring Contributions in Economic Development' or 'Honoring Contributions in Education' or something like that, although we find ourselves repeatedly honoring exactly those things. It's called 'Honoring Contributions in the Governance of American Indian Nations' because it is in part in their capacity to act as nations, to assert their sovereign powers, to exercise that sovereignty effectively, to build an environment that can persuade talented, energetic, resourceful tribal members and non-members to bet on the tribal future, to bet on it here and not there. In other words, it's in their capacity to govern well that Indian nations like other nations around the world can best shape their own futures according to their own designs.

I think today you're going to hear from and about many of the Honoring Nations awardees and you'll see in their stories most of these themes because the award-winning programs are themselves examples of tribal sovereignty in action, of Indian nations that are tackling difficult problems in their own ways, are building institutions and tribal programs that can deal with those problems effective, are drawing on their own cultures as they do so, weaving their own values and views into their solutions and initiatives, thinking for the long run, rebuilding nations that work, nations that will last, and of course these award-winning programs are themselves examples of leadership. These are Indigenous initiatives that in a difficult time and as Chief Lyons said, 'We're in a difficult time,' offer enormous promise not only to their own nations but to all of us.

The big lesson of the Honoring Nations program is that tribal government works. We see a wave of innovation rolling across Indian Country. It's an innovation that draws on the past, responds to the challenges of the present, is building a much better and stronger future for Indian nations. It has worked and lessons to teach us all, and again we honor those programs for what you're doing and for what you offer to us."

Honoring Nations: Julia "Bunny" Jaakola: Turning Sovereignty into a Practical Reality: The Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa

Producer
Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development
Year

Julia "Bunny" Jaakola shares how the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa turned sovereignty into a practical reality through leadership, community engagement, and collaboration with outside entities.

Resource Type
Citation

Jaakola, Julia "Bunny." "Turning Sovereignty into a Practical Reality: The Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa." Honoring Nations symposium. Harvard Project on American Indian Economic Development, John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University. Sante Fe, New Mexico. February 7, 2002. Presentation.

Andrew Lee:

"The first person I would like to introduce -- comes from the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa -- is Bunny Jaakola. If you don't know, the Fond du Lac Band has won a number of awards, both in 1999 and in 2000, in 1999 for their off-reservation Indian foster care program that Bunny is involved with, and also in 2000 for their pharmacy online billing initiative. I don't know whether you're going to be discussing both in particular, but she certainly has a great deal of knowledge about 'How to Turn Sovereignty into a Practical Reality.' Welcome, Bunny."

Julia "Bunny" Jaakola:

"Thank you very much. It's a real privilege to be here. I thought that I was going to come and see some mild, nice weather coming from Minnesota, because we have a shortage of snow there. We're not having normal winter weather at all. But it's real nice being here in the sun. I'm Bunny Jaakola. I'm from the Fond du Lac Band of Minnesota Chippewa in northern Minnesota, and I work as the coordinator of social services for the tribe. I've been there almost 15 years now. I've been in the tribe a lot longer than that.

Fond du Lac has an enrollment of about 3,500 people and has grown to be the largest employer within the county of about 30,000 people. We have two casinos, one of which is in downtown Duluth. This came about as a partnership between the Band and the city council and continues to be a profitable endeavor.

Our chairman, Robert Peacock, sends his regards and regrets that he couldn't be here. I can also tell you that the chairman is very proud of the accomplishments of the staff at Fond du Lac. It's through his leadership and the support of other council members that we have been able to do what we do. A good idea for growth and development receives the attention necessary to proceed. The leaders recognized the merits of community input to determine needs, and that allows the workers to turn those needs into goals. These goals eventually become the actual steps in the overall development of services for our Indian people. Trust in the people who are hired to carry out such plans has been the impetus that retains long-term employees and nurtures the commitment to continue such projects.

Our leaders have acknowledged and continue to promote the value of working closely with the county and state neighbors to address some very hard issues, while not giving up our sovereignty. Collaboration is the key for Fond du Lac and the Minnesota conservation departments to establish hunting and fishing practices that are fair to everyone and yet retain the tribal rights of Indian people. The Fond du Lac education division strives to work closely with the public school systems and yet develop an American Indian educational system that will retain cultural values, traditions, and provide a better understanding for children of our very valuable history. Fond du Lac is also successfully carving out a tribal law enforcement program that will be able to work in conjunction with county, city, and state police. Efforts are currently at work to develop community response programs to provide options for the county court judges that will give a first or early Indian offender an opportunity for rehabilitation rather than jail time. The tentative plan requires no additional staff, nor additional funding.

More specifically to the human service division, a partnership was formed in 1994 with St. Louis County to provide Families First services to the Indian people who reside in Duluth -- and Duluth is about 25 miles away from our reservation. We have a contract with Arrowhead Juvenile Center since 1998 to provide an Indian employee to work with the Indian youth who are incarcerated there, trying to reduce the recidivism rate of the kids who are incarcerated. We have a contract with Carlton County that has been renewed each year since 1996 to maintain an on-reservation foster care program. We are just completing three years of contracts with the Duluth Family Collaborative to employee two social workers who provide wrap-around services to the Duluth Indian families.

The support I receive from Fond du Lac leadership has made it possible for me to actively participate in seven long years of the development, negotiation, and finally, the eventual signing of a tribal-state child welfare agreement with the State of Minnesota. The signing of this agreement has finally begun to change the ways counties are handling Indian child welfare cases in the state. The agreement provides four major opportunities for a better working relationship between the state and the 11 tribes in the state. They are, number one, ICWA training for all new child protection workers in the state. Two, it opens the door for additional contracts with the tribes, with counties, with the state. Three, it provides additional legislative input for tribal child welfare. Four, it instituted an eight-member ICWA compliance review team to monitor ICWA cases throughout the state.

One of the successful projects specific to Fond du Lac is the Fond du Lac Licensing and Placement Agency, which earned an Honoring Nations award in 1999. The success for the foster care program is that we were able to resolve both the jurisdictional questions and increase the number of Indian families interested in providing substitute care for those Indian children when necessary. It's a plain fact that Indian people work better with Indian providers. Because the jurisdiction laws of the state prohibit tribes from licensing off the reservation, we found a way to extend the sovereignty with full cooperation from the state. A corporation was formed and consists of Indian employees and other interested Indian people, including one tribal council member. A contract was developed and signed between this corporation and the reservation business committee. All personnel and accounting services are provided for the corporation by the tribe through this contract. In essence, you would call the corporation a step organization of the Fond du Lac Band. This program is also unusual because the corporation is licensed by the State of Minnesota. You can see how the program is actually an extension of sovereignty outside reservation boundaries. Through this contract, Fond du Lac employees have been able to impact the placements of Indian children in foster care all over northern Minnesota and further empower our existing structure.

Prior to the establishment of this arrangement, counties had few and some had no Indian foster homes. Counties had great difficulty recruiting Indian people for a variety of reasons, historical mistrust being the most obvious. This could be used as a convenient reason for not placing Indian children with Indian families as the Indian Child Welfare Act requires. It was also a lucrative income for existing foster parents, given the number of children that were being removed in the past. Since our start-up about 10 years ago, we have placed nearly 500 children in these Indian homes and provided about $3.5 million to Indian foster care providers. The future is bright for Fond du Lac's social services with our current ability to be reimbursed for the targeted case management that we've been doing since 1980, actually. Through successful negotiation by individuals committed to Indian people and a positive partnership with state employees, the road has been paved for tribes in Minnesota to finance their own social service departments in this manner. This is something that's just getting started, being reimbursed for target case management.

The award that was given to Fond du Lac in the year 2000 was the Pharmacy Online Billing Initiative. I don't know that much about the computer world but I will try to be brief to give a better description of what that project was. The resource patient management system, or the RPMS, is the existing Indian Health Service tool for the collection of data for all tribal accounts. This system has no capacity for billing. In time of rising costs and third-party payers, Fond du Lac recognized the need to change the system. The people at the human services department, or division, applied for and [were] awarded an IHS tribal management grant to attack just this problem. With the grant, Fond du Lac was able to purchase a computerized system for billing and record-keeping. A vendor was found for the development of the software that was actually implemented. Within a year we had an online pharmacy billing system that was compatible with the Indian Health Service and served the financial needs of Fond du Lac very well. The reality is that very soon after a check was received for $625,000 dollars that represented allowable billing for pharmaceuticals at Fond du Lac. This is a successful project that can be and is being replicated by other tribes. Some of the more tangible benefits that come from that particular project is an expanded pharmacy program, an optometry clinic for the Indian people in our area, a summer day camp for at least 120 kids all summer from early June until the end of August.

A few of the words I used to describe Fond du Lac are the following: We have people who have a vision; it's radar. They have that radar out there and they listen for ideas and they push to get them into place. Collaboration, negotiation and the nurturing of relationships, respect and trust, acknowledgement of existing limitations; knowing what we're not going to give away, knowing what the other party is not going to give away and working from there. Investment in membership equals long-term, committed workers. Building and nurturing a rapport with key people not only locally, but statewide and nationally. Development of resources for funding in partnerships, engaging participants in the actual planning, and thinking outside the box."

Jamie Fullmer: Taking a Strategic Approach at Yavapai-Apache Nation

Producer
Native Nations Institute
Year

Jamie Fullmer, former chairman of the Yavapai-Apache Nation, discusses how his nation developed a strategic approach to tackling its nation-building challenges during his time in office. He stresses the importance of Native nations and leaders conducting comprehensive of the state of their communities and people in order to engage in informed, effective decision making that yields positive, lasting results.

People
Native Nations
Resource Type
Citation

Fullmer, Jamie. "Taking a Strategic Approach at Yavapai-Apache Nation." Emerging Leaders seminar. Native Nations Institute for Leadership, Management and Policy, University of Arizona, Tucson, Arizona. April 12, 2007. Presentation.

"My name is Jamie Fullmer. I'm Chairman of Yavapai-Apache Nation. I'm President of Inter-Tribal Council of Arizona and this is my second term in office.

As the Chairman of Yavapai-Apache Nation, I understand what all of you as tribal leaders are going through. We go through some strange and unique times because we come in with dreams and goals and commitment to doing great things and then we get hit by the reality of what goes on in our communities.

I had been graced with the idea and the fortunateness of working with my tribe as the Health and Human Services Director and I got to see what was really going on. I know about the drug problems in our communities. I know about the young people having babies in our communities. I know about the hard fact that some of our people don't have education. I know about the reality of the difficulty of finding jobs. And I think one of those things that...all of these things really connected to me and it helped me as coming into the chairmanship that I needed to do some things that were very important, but I also needed to be realistic. And I think that's the one thing that I'm very grateful for today is that my experience in social work and working with people helped me to be realistic.

It doesn't mean that we can't have dreams and hopes. It means, though, that as tribal leaders and as people working for our tribal governments that you take an honest look at what's going on in the community. I heard one time a tribal leader that said something that hit me home because I didn't agree with it, but out of respect I listened. He said, ‘I like to think that we don't have any problems in our communities,' when I was the Director of Health and Human Services and I knew full well what the problems were in our community. But I think that the important part of what we're learning in these sessions and what we're learning through NNI is that we have to be reality-based and we also have to be based in understanding or learning to understand what is it that we have.

And I guess the challenge for us all is to take a look and do a survey. In my community, I do an annual survey on a couple of different areas. And before I get to that though, Manley [Begay] had represented the idea that when I got into office I knew that I needed some help. I knew that I needed some ideas. I knew that I needed expertise. I knew what we had internally and I knew we needed more, because sometimes the outside words of wisdom are listened to a little more clearly than the inside words. And I think we all face that in our own lives and in our leadership roles. So I reached out to the group down here, NNI, Native Nations Institute and I was pleasantly surprised and I'm very appreciative.

And we did...originally we had worked out a 30-year comprehensive plan. And when I got into leadership I thought that 30 years is a long time. In this pace of reality, 30 months is a long time. Things change so fast and so I asked that they come back and we did another work session where we narrowed our 30-year vision down into a three to five-year increment because I felt like that's manageable, that's something that all of us can feel. I can say, ‘We can accomplish this in 30 days, in 90 days, in one year and we can put actions behind the words.'

When I got into the office I got into a very...somebody was talking about a corner office. I have a corner office. But when I walked into that office there was a bookshelf and it was full of books and every one of those books was a master plan. And these were plans from 1975, 1985, 1992, 1994 and believe it or not I read through them all. But I understood why the leaders couldn't accomplish what was in those plans. Because they weren't realistic and they weren't...I heard the word earlier...they weren't culturally matching to our community.

So when I challenge people to do a survey of your community, I'm not only asking how many people do you have? I know in Yavapai Apache Nation we have 2,020 tribal members. We just enrolled a handful more and we're growing and we're proud of that. I know that half of them live in the community and half of them live off the community. I know that of that half that live off the community, a majority of them live in Phoenix. I know those things about our community based on our demographics. I know that we have a young people, that 1,000 of our people are 18 and under. I know that we have only 60 of our very important and critical resources, which is our elders over 60 years old. I know these things and because I know these things, we plan around that. How do we utilize our human resources? And I'm not talking about human resource...some of you are probably human resource for employees, but as a leader we need to look at what are our human resources in our community.

I'm very proud to say our people today, we have 240 tribal members in a college or higher education. I'm very proud of that. But then the next step of that is how do we get them to come back into our community? It was talked about earlier, brain drain. What is it that we can provide for our community that will give them a commitment level to want to come back? In my case in coming back it was more of a spiritual thing and I know that not everybody is driven by the spirit in their young lives but they become more driven by the spirit as they grow older. But how do we get people to connect to the important part of our culture, which is spirit. I think those are the challenges that every one of you as well as myself face in our leadership roles and in our management roles.

Because one of the things we heard earlier was colonialism. I've heard that a lot over...I guess I'm still young. Some people say I'm not a spring chicken anymore. This colonial ideal: how do we as traditional people living in traditional ways move forward with this colonial system? We adopt constitutions; that's not our way. We adopt European laws; that's not our way. And then we have to put inside of that the parts of our culture that maybe sometimes don't fit. So at times in our modern-day systems, we have pieces that don't naturally fit. What is it that leaders need to do to be able to mend that or create that weaving or that tapestry that will connect those pieces? Those are the questions that every one of you are asking or you wouldn't be here for the last two days. Those are the questions that we need answers to that we can pass along to our people.

Because I'm proud of my people, but my people challenge me. They challenge me all the time. And as a tribal leader, you may be thinking about a big decision, ‘We need to create policies for commerce and economy, we need to create laws that will govern the future of our people,' and still you'll have an elder come in and say, ‘My transmission's broken and you need to fix it.' And I'm going to tell you what, if you don't treat those two on equal grounds, you're not going to be in the seat very long as a leader because they are just as important to our people. Or when a young person dies in the community and yet you're considering and you're thinking, ‘I'm developing an economy for the future. I'm developing things for the future.' All of you as leaders know that in your heart you're crying about the young person who's died in the community and yet you have to be the one to stand strong so that your people can rely on your strength. I think those are the critical pieces that we face in the modern world as tribal leaders.

I'm fortunate to live in a time as we move into the 21st century, well into it now, as we move into it, we are in a time where we have the most...from the 20th century to now we have the most political freedom that we've ever had. Believe that or not. We're still oppressed, but we have the most freedom that we've ever had. And how do you exercise that? How do you exercise sovereignty in this world? Some people would argue, ‘Well, when you waive limited sovereign immunity you're giving up something.' But you know what, if you don't, if you don't acknowledge that you have something, how can you give it up? You have to acknowledge that you have something. That's what sovereignty is, in my humble opinion. There are challenges to that and I respect those challenges. Every community is different and every one of you have different priorities in your community. I respect that.

I think that one of the biggest pieces that I see now as we move into things is that as we're all here trying to figure out how to govern our societies, how to create economy, how to do important things for the people, and yet at the same time still be close to the heart, still be close to the earth, still be honest about the social problems, because we can have giant dreams but if people don't buy into the dreams, it doesn't go anywhere. I think that that's probably the biggest challenge for leaders, for those of you working for tribes. The leaders care deeply about their people. They wouldn't sacrifice their personal lives to lead if they didn't care deeply about their people. But yet your job as management is to understand their vision, learn from them, and use your skills to help move the system forward. These are the challenges that all of us face and I know that and I respect you for facing that.

As we...as I talk a little bit I'm going to go over just a few areas and then I know it's time for dessert so you'll be ready for some carrot cake or...Torry, did you cook dessert, too? We move forward and we have to look at the reality of it is that everything we do in this modern world that strengthens our government or strengthens our society is in some strange way connected to our financial resources. And this is a hard thing for us. We saw earlier the very powerful speaker, Professor [Robert] Williams. We heard about him and how the trade was governed differently, how the thoughts were governed differently. But I know very well in our community, and I pray about it -- I'm a prayerful man, I live in that world -- and the answer always comes back that if you have strong ties to culture, if you have strong ties to spirit, and you can learn to respect and understand finances, you will be successful and last a long time as people. Those things are critical. Even though I'm not a man that's tied to finances in my own thinking, I understand that you have to respect it in order to strengthen it. Just like with everything. You have to respect yourself to strengthen yourself. You have to respect your people to strengthen your community. Those things go together.

And so as I look at this, I think there's some important things and you're taking part in one of them and that is council training and learning how to teach one another to be a team. The one thing about council is that we are in...as leaders we're in oppositional seats at times because we have to fight one another to get where we're at. That's part of the politics. But when that's over and the battle's over and that's won and you've organized your group, it's in the best interest of the people to learn how to work as a team. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have your opinions, that doesn't mean you shouldn't debate, because I also believe that strong and powerful debate makes for strong and powerful decisions. So you should debate, you should argue, you should do all those things on behalf of your people but at some point you have to say, ‘This is where we need to stop the debate and move forward with action.' And so I think that's a critical link.

The other thing as a tribal leader and as the head of my executive branch -- many governments are defined differently -- but one of the things that I look at is the organizational structure. The organizational structure has to do a couple of things: it has to help you as leaders and managers govern your programming and it also has to help the people that work for our nation, that work for our community, understand and learn to respect our system and if the system is, what's the word they used to use in that political or flip-flop or wishy-washy, 'some way' is the word we use. If it's 'some way,' if it's not consistent, then you don't get good quality movement from your people, from your staff. And so I think one of the critical things that I've noticed in my government is make the policies, and this was brought up earlier, make the policies and stick to them.

I've taken a lot of criticism for that. ‘You're doing things the white way.' And I'm like, ‘Business isn't a white concept.' Business is a worldwide concept. Discipline is a very important concept to my people traditionally, very strict discipline. We live very disciplined lives, so if they say that's not an Apache concept, they're completely off the track 'cause we did live very disciplined lives. So if we can keep that as a cultural thing and say, ‘This isn't a white concept or a non-Indian concept, this is a concept that we embrace.' That's how the organizational structure should work.

The other thing I'd like to point out is that there needs to be...when you create your chain of command, it needs to be an honest chain of command, because again people will try to go around the structure and the structure is what creates the strength. If you're like a jellyfish...relatives from right off the coast here. If you're like a jellyfish, you go like this. You kind of float around, you don't have the backbone. For us that live on the ground, we need a backbone to move forward.

The other thing is, I think this is critical and I know it's been brought up a little bit, but you have to have your financial house in order. You have...you don't necessarily have to be an accountant or finance wizard or anything like that, but you better have people in those positions that you trust. You also better get...we focus on ours, we created an internal audit so that if our leaders have question or our people have question we can go audit ourselves and take a look at it and give a response to them. That way it's dealt with and if they don't believe that then they can wait until our annual audit comes up by the outside auditors. But I guess what I'm saying is that for this to work, in my opinion, this is only my opinion, but you have to have the financial house in order and you always have to keep your eye on the money. Not to say that you have to be so scrutinable that you forget everything else but know your financial position, know what needs to be in place. These are things that are challenges for us, because not a lot of us are financial wizards. I trust the people that work for me and if I don't, then I can't rely on them to do the things that the tribe wants us to do.

Finally, I think as we get ...am I okay on time? Is everybody okay, you want me to shut up and get down? Sit down, shut up and get out. Finding a balance in the priorities as leaders and as managers and I think...I'm going to talk a little bit for you tribal leaders because again, this is only coming from me and what I've seen, but I've been fortunate in my I guess middle-aged life now to see a little bit in Indian Country and I think that we're pretty consistent in that we've all faced the same struggles. No matter where I go I'm like, ‘Wow, that sounds just like home.' I'm like, ‘That is so strange that coast to coast we're so similar and yet we have so much difference,' and I respect the difference, but I also think that we have to appreciate the similarity in our worlds. We've seen the historical perspective. We've all faced oppression for hundreds of years. So right now when we have political freedom, when we have a way to express our sovereignty, we need to look at a couple of things as leaders. We need to look at and set priorities to our legal...we heard earlier, what codes do you have in place? What guides do you have in place? What policies and procedures do you have in place to govern, which in my mind is leadership, governing? Those are critical things to work on.

Right now in our community, we're definitely not where we need to be, but we're very aware of what we have gaps in and so we're working on it. It takes a long time to put in a judicial code because it impacts all of your kids, or excuse me, a juvenile code. It impacts all your kids. It takes a long time to put in a commercial code, because you're not only considering yourself, you've got to look, what's it going to look like 50 years down the road. These are big decisions and so leaders who take your time, I appreciate that, but at some point you have to get through the discussion and make it a law and live with it. I think that's the big part about the legal piece that comes into play because I know we can debate, we're good debaters. In the Yavapai-Apache Nation, we like to debate. But you can debate so long and then at some point you have to just draw the line and say, ‘This is where we need to stop and if the future leaders want to change it, they have that right but at least they have a baseline, at least they have ground to walk on.'

The other is the social issues. I always look at that. I'm very proud of our people who are getting educated. I'm very proud that we have been able to get resources through our gaming to begin to expand our economy, but there's still social problems. This crystal meth in our communities -- and I don't know how many of you are afflicted by this plague -- but it's terrible and I don't know the answer. We've made our laws stronger, we've increased our police force, we've increased our treatment services, we've done educational, and the only thing you can do is keep doing more so that you never give up on your people. And I guess that's the big thing about social programming is that you have to keep doing more and never give up on your people.

Cultural: this is one unique area for our tribe because we have the Yavapais and we have Dil zhę̨̨́é and we have Apaches in our community and each of them over time we've grown together and we call ourselves one nation 'cause we live together, but we have distinct differences in our historical culture. So how do we embrace that, what I'll call 'ancient history' with our more recent history in that we've been a nation together for 100 years? How do you make that bridge in a helpful way or a healing way and some of you may have those issues with traditional and non-traditional, people who live in the old way and practice our traditional value system and people who have adopted the Christian viewpoint or whatever other viewpoint out there. How can we embrace that and still be one people? It can be done, but it takes a mature...it takes mature leaders to teach people to be mature about how we can be separate but equal.

Economic, very proudly...we were one of the poorest tribes in America before we got our gaming. Gaming has changed us in that we have been able to begin to create economy, but you also have to look at your economy as what are you doing? We talked about that this morning. What are you serving, what purpose is it serving? So there needs to be some evaluation in that is our economy just to create money or should it create jobs or can we do both. Is it on reservation, off reservation, in Arizona, out of Arizona, in America, out of America? The world is our playground now so we may as well use that.

Sovereignty is an important thing. We're very proud at Yavapai Apache Nation because we appreciate partnering with other tribes and expressing our sovereignty through tribe-to-tribe relations. We've helped four other tribes build casinos and we have a partnership with an Alaskan Inupiat company for constructing buildings. And we've also...right now we're in a partnership...

And believe me, I'm not saying this as a bragging thing. I just think it's an important thing to express that I don't just say this before you and walk out of here...'I really pulled the wool over their faces,' but it's not that way. We do...we say it and we do it and we do it and we say it. We're proud of what we do...what we do, what we say we're going to do. That's cultural. I'm sure every one of you are that same way in your cultures, but some of these things are important because we've got to bridge a gap that was created between us as Indian people. This whole federal government got in the way and said, ‘You guys can't do anything on your own. We've got to be your big brother.' We seen earlier the river, the wampum belt with the river. That's how it has to be. It's not...we don't need a big brother. We need partners, we need relatives, we need friends, we need things that are going to go a long way together. We don't need a big brother anymore. We're all grown up. We never did need a big brother.

So I think those are important things, but we also have to respect that there's that mindset there. We have to be honest and I think that's the important thing is be realistic and that's a difficult one because I would like to...I'd be like that one that said, ‘I'd like to think that the federal government, the BIA [Bureau of Indian Affairs] and IHS [Indian Health Service] and all those are out to help us.' I'd like to think that but my eyes that don't deceive me, they tell me the truth. So if that's the case and I hear them saying, ‘Oh, we're giving all the help that is humanly possible,' but my eyes see that we still struggle because there isn't that help. What can we do? How do we embrace it? And I think that's where we're at in the modern sense is we're in that place of questioning. We're in the place where we have to be careful about the challenges. Because as was brought up earlier, the swipe of a pen in 1875 we had a...Yavapai-Apache Nation in Camp Verde was 800 miles, was the original reservation, and with the swipe of a pen Ulysses S. Grant completely wiped it off the face of the earth. So it can be done with the swipe of a pen today and so we have to be careful about that but we have to be strong in our assertions.

We also have to be science-minded in a sense. We have to...brought up earlier, demographics. Understand your needs, understand your community, understand your natural resources and your cultural resources and how to protect the integrity of your society. I think that's a critical piece to it. What are the faux pas and the 'no nos' and the 'yes yes' and everything else? Feasibility and market studies; get your experts to analyze things. To me, I think it's worth paying the $30,000 to prevent a $5 million loss even though we can debate all day long to say, ‘Why do we need that feasibility study and why do we need to study this, we already know it's going to work.' But if it doesn't work, would your people be more angry at the $30,000 expense for the study or the $5 million loss because of a bad investment. I'll take the heat for $30,000. I'm not going to take the heat for $5 million. So that's important too as leaders and as managers: realize that you have a fiduciary responsibility of your people's financial dealings. I think that's an important part of this. Put yourself in the same boots because you're walking for your people when you're out there. You're walking and talking for your people.

Also I think...I brought this up just a touch, but I'll get into it a little bit about the political landscape. Right now in Indian Country, we're in a difficult political landscape around us. We've had some negative vibrations come to us. And so how do we as people need to be...how can we be public and create relations with our local communities around us so that it isn't so bad of a taste? You go to the east over there and they're all crazy right now. This, that and the other, we need to change all the laws against gaming and it's kind of mind boggling in a sense but then you have to go home and say, ‘How do we keep ourselves stable at home? How do we protect home?'

And then not only your external landscape, but your internal landscape. Are you in an oppositional system or do you guys fight a lot and is that your customs? That's fine, but can you get agreement on some things so that at least something comes out of it? All of us that have term limits have a limited time to get things done. And I think that's the important thing too as leaders of things. What kind of compromises can you make and what ones do you need to stand by? And I think that's an important thing, at least for me. There are things that I'm willing to compromise to make the bigger picture work. There are things that I won't because it's in my heart not to and I think as people we need to take personal integrity inventories to decide...I guess it's an internal code of ethics. What drives you and how...what drives your other fellow leaders and how can you work together?

And I think one of the discussions that was brought up, Joan [Timeche] you brought this up, and it's about the community readiness. One of the things that we really have to understand is what is our community ready for. My Indian name is [Apache language], which is 'Jumping Lizard,' because my people say I'm always jumping around. And I think that's the biggest thing that you have to look at is what is the community ready for? Because some things get exciting and then some things get scary and then some things feel overwhelming. I think that's one of the important facets to this and that's. What these sessions help with is taking little bites out. We're all going to hopefully eat this carrot cake when it comes but can we...some of us, like me, we'll put it all in and eat it and some of us got to take it one bite at a time. And I think that's an important thing that...I know that I've been...one of my challenges is being able to see and instead of asking, ‘Why aren't you ready?' asking, ‘What can I do to help you be ready?' And it's a simple question of change, but it's a hard one for someone who says, ‘Everybody should know why we should be able to build more, bigger, better, faster-moving machine.' But not everybody feels that way. Some people like to go slow. Some people like to think through things and I respect that.

Just in closing, I really appreciate the concepts that have been brought out because this is really what we need. We need to have leaders coming together because again today I hear all of these important questions coming out of you obviously important people and they're the same questions that I'm asking at home and I'm like, ‘Gosh, this is a good day and age because we're growing, we're doing important things,' but now we've got to have a change of thinking. We can't think about what is the world around us going to give us. We have to think about what in the world can we give ourselves and can we give that to others as well. And it's our time. I really believe that it's our time, that we can do good things with one another like's being done today by learning together. We can do good things with one another by teaching together. We can do good things with one another by creating fantastic, amazing businesses together and we can do a very important thing which is, as was brought up earlier, about teaching Americans, teaching the Indians how to be Americans. We can teach the rest of the world how we are and they can learn to respect us as we learn to respect ourselves. And so I appreciate the opportunity to speak to you all today. It's an honor and it's a privilege and thank you, [Apache language]."